Eastman / Aero price gouging on overseas sales

[Persimmon]

Well then..by all means lets keep it going! Maybe it'll 'die naturally' at a ripe old age. I'm sure that there must be much more to say...and we can even argue about that till it's beat to death,too. :lol:

Van,
You are a wag
But by accounts a loveable one :lol: :lol:

Oh yes the subject... Truth and Justice

 

[Vcruiser]

Well then..by all means lets keep it going! Maybe it'll 'die naturally' at a ripe old age. I'm sure that there must be much more to say...and we can even argue about that till it's beat to death,too. :lol:

Van,
You are a wag
But by accounts a loveable one :lol: :lol:

Oh yes the subject... Truth and Justice

VAT's for sure.

 

[Otter]

Well..I for one might not let it ever die!

BTW..just what was the subject..?

Ornitholgy? I just remembered the other place for this quote, Blackadder. The Bishop of Bath and Wells bursts into Blackadders bedroom in the early hours demanding repayment to which the noble lord replies: "what are you, some kind of giant lark?"

 

[Vcruiser]

Well..I for one might not let it ever die!

BTW..just what was the subject..?

Ornitholgy? I just remembered the other place for this quote, Blackadder. The Bishop of Bath and Wells bursts into Blackadders bedroom in the early hours demanding repayment to which the noble lord replies: "what are you, some kind of giant lark?"

Simple man here. Don't know Blackadder.
Does it have something to do with MeadowLark Lemon..?

(kidding)

 

[SuinBruin]

A thread should die naturally and not because an individual or two decides it to be the case.
Perhaps some may wish to end it becuase of self interest.
Too friendly with the retailers(s), their way is always right, better issues to discuss, etc etc etc

The issue was clarity and hopefully now folks can see what they are being charged where ever they are in the world and make a decision to buy or not buy on various factors including cost.

However even now there is a case that not everyone has read about this issue yet.
Especialaly where it was cut short by a very friendly "referee" !! and especially after it was a late developer on the Hat forum.

So both here and there it should be left to die naturally when all has been said, all members of the two forums have understood the issue and if any companies need to be named and shamed for their profiteering then it is clear to eveyone.

And not curtailed by friends of the Aero and Eastman management who clearly in their initial double talk etc did not want this out as an issue at all

Yep.

Everyone knows where I stand on this by now so I'm not going to prolong the thread with more posts on the VAT issue, but I would like to reiterate to the mods how much I appreciate the fact that they let this play out in its own way without locking or cutting it. It's nice to be treated like an adult -- too many other forums are moderated with too heavy a hand, IMO. Looks like FL is in that category and I don't think my posting career will continue over there. I'll also say here what I can't say there -- I agree with Alan's take above, and I think it was baldly partisan of Paddy to lock down the FL thread. If he cares to offer a better explanation I'd be curious to hear it, but I think the act speaks for itself.

cheers,
matt

 

[omarco]

This is all very noble, especially the proclamation of the struggle for Truth and Justice! but it strikes me that its all just bitching about the price. Now bitching about price is okay, my last jacket purchase was from NZ and my next one will be too, after that i have one from the US chalked up and i wouldn't mind a jot if they were all 20% cheaper.. but they aren't and no amount of complaining will change that.

ELC and Aero have placed themselves at the top of the market along side GW, Real Mccoys and RMNZ (or did these companies place themselves at the top of the market alongside ELC and Aero?) Should they take themselves out of this price bracket in order to satisfy those who think their products ought to be cheaper (for no other reason than that they must pay VAT on their UK sales?) The proposition is ridiculous on a few levels.

Its possible of course that my opinions would be different if i lived on the other side of the pond, though i like to think they would be exactly the same.

 

[ButteMT61]

...Its possible of course that my opinions would be different if i lived on the other side of the pond, though i like to think they would be exactly the same.

Actually, I'm tired of those unhappy being labeled Lime-O-Phobes. It's nothing about Brits or not liking them, it's simply about a practice that's not clear, and not fairly absorbed (VAT).
I'm not aware of any ill feelings towards our friends over there, although the irony is that this thread may change that if it goes for another 27 pages! :lol:

 

[omarco]

I'll admit i find it incredibly hard not to respond to some of the BS and in the end i couldn't resist. I have nothing more useful to add though, and as i have already said these threads do end up going round in circles. As long as all views have been expressed it does seem a little pointless going round in circles.

Best
Marco

 

[Vcruiser]

I'll admit i find it incredibly hard not to respond to some of the BS and in the end i couldn't resist.

* I have nothing more useful to add though, and as i have already said these threads do end up going round in circles. As long as all views have been expressed it does seem a little pointless going round in circles. *

Best
Marco

Well..I'll be damn!... :shock:
..trouble is...some want to say the same thing over again...only worded differently...or in agreement with another who also posted the same thing over again too.
Then others do not want it to die until they convince others(at least one opponent) to see it their way.
Kinda reminds me of politics. :shock:
However..in the end(?) with all the explanations I've seen...I'm sure this thread will bring us all closer together. :shock:

 

[derleicaman]

Hey Van, can we all say KOOM-BAY-YA?

Quoting the recently departed Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"

 

[Otter]

...Its possible of course that my opinions would be different if i lived on the other side of the pond, though i like to think they would be exactly the same.

Actually, I'm tired of those unhappy being labeled Lime-O-Phobes. It's nothing about Brits or not liking them, it's simply about a practice that's not clear, and not fairly absorbed (VAT).
I'm not aware of any ill feelings towards our friends over there, although the irony is that this thread may change that if it goes for another 27 pages! :lol:

BUT it must be all your fault you rebelled against your King and threw all that tea into the harbour (not personaly I understand) so therefore it must be all your fault by collective responsability! Oh and BTW, the tax on the tea is still outstanding, prompt payment would be appreciated. :lol:

 

[ButteMT61]

...Its possible of course that my opinions would be different if i lived on the other side of the pond, though i like to think they would be exactly the same.

Actually, I'm tired of those unhappy being labeled Lime-O-Phobes. It's nothing about Brits or not liking them, it's simply about a practice that's not clear, and not fairly absorbed (VAT).
I'm not aware of any ill feelings towards our friends over there, although the irony is that this thread may change that if it goes for another 27 pages! :lol:

BUT it must be all your fault you rebelled against your King and threw all that tea into the harbour (not personaly I understand) so therefore it must be all your fault by collective responsability! Oh and BTW, the tax on the tea is still outstanding, prompt payment would be appreciated. :lol:

I'd have let you keep the tea - I only drink that in the company of you ferriners. I'll take my blood coffee from one-armed growers in South America thank you! :lol:

 

[Vcruiser]

Hey Van, can we all say KOOM-BAY-YA?

Quoting the recently departed Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"

That's what I'm talkin about..!! :lol:
My gawd...I just realised that I have been repeating myself and seeking someone/anyone to agree with me as well. You guys have pulled even me into this circle of neverending hell. I don't want to lay blame on all the Brits...so I'll just pick out my ole friend John Lever as the instigator (in a good way). I think that he would gladly take the blame for the good of the Forum to repair any gulf between nations..communities...cultures...and Kalifornians.
Now surely it will be 'case closed'...and I will get my way.
Thank You
And God Save The Queen
Van

 

[Jaguar46]

After thinking about this thread for awhile, I feel like posting here. Discovering that small companies are making an extra 20% from charging its overseas customers the same price as everyone else, yet not having to pay to the UK government the VAT, seems almost trivial to me. I'll explain.

Anyone who has experience in the wholesale/retail garment market may already know what I am about to say. I had a friend who was a one person enterprise. She would import into the US hand knitted Alpaca sweaters made in Peru made by the women in Cuzco, Peru, paying the person in charge of these women about $25 per sweater (the leader probably paid each woman $10-$15 per sweater, I would guess the materials for each sweater cost only a few dollars), and would pay for shipping and customs to the US. The added costs brought the cost up to about $45-50 per sweater. Then she would sell them to stores such as Nieman Marcus, Macys, Nordstroms, as well as smaller retail clothing stores such as Patrick James. These stores would pay about $70 per sweater. These high end stores would mark up the the sweaters up to $210 a sweater (or more). A markup of over $140 (2X) what they paid. 200%. When they would have season ending sales of 1/3 off, their markup (and profit) fell to only 100%. Even at a "steal price" of 50% off, the profit was 50%. When I learned of the usual markup practices of these retail outlets, I was astonished. I shudder to think what they would markup Aero jackets to.

So when I see that a small company makes 20% more off of a high quality garment such as a front quarter horsehide jacket, by not having to pay out the VAT tax, I am afraid I can't really make that much of it.

 

[John Lever]

Hey Van, can we all say KOOM-BAY-YA?

Quoting the recently departed Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"

That's what I'm talkin about..!! :lol:
My gawd...I just realised that I have been repeating myself and seeking someone/anyone to agree with me as well. You guys have pulled even me into this circle of neverending hell. I don't want to lay blame on all the Brits...so I'll just pick out my ole friend John Lever as the instigator (in a good way). I think that he would gladly take the blame for the good of the Forum to repair any gulf between nations..communities...cultures...and Kalifornians.
Now surely it will be 'case closed'...and I will get my way.
Thank You
And God Save The Queen
Van

I was wondering when I would have to take the blame,good job I have broad shoulders [50 inches]
Mea Culpa or perhaps it should be Mea cuppa , tea anyone ?

 

[ButteMT61]

Oh good - you can buy my Aero A-2 - perfect fit?
I'll even share some tea!

 

[Vcruiser]

Oh good - you can buy my Aero A-2 - perfect fit?
I'll even share some tea!

Will this all happen in a half-way house at Boston Harbor?
(Just curious)
VB

 

[arclight]

After thinking about this thread for awhile, I feel like posting here. Discovering that small companies are making an extra 20% from charging its overseas customers the same price as everyone else, yet not having to pay to the UK government the VAT, seems almost trivial to me. I'll explain.

Anyone who has experience in the wholesale/retail garment market may already know what I am about to say. I had a friend who was a one person enterprise. She would import into the US hand knitted Alpaca sweaters made in Peru made by the women in Cuzco, Peru, paying the person in charge of these women about $25 per sweater (the leader probably paid each woman $10-$15 per sweater, I would guess the materials for each sweater cost only a few dollars), and would pay for shipping and customs to the US. The added costs brought the cost up to about $45-50 per sweater. Then she would sell them to stores such as Nieman Marcus, Macys, Nordstroms, as well as smaller retail clothing stores such as Patrick James. These stores would pay about $70 per sweater. These high end stores would mark up the the sweaters up to $210 a sweater (or more). A markup of over $140 (2X) what they paid. 200%. When they would have season ending sales of 1/3 off, their markup (and profit) fell to only 100%. Even at a "steal price" of 50% off, the profit was 50%. When I learned of the usual markup practices of these retail outlets, I was astonished. I shudder to think what they would markup Aero jackets to.

So when I see that a small company makes 20% more off of a high quality garment such as a front quarter horsehide jacket, by not having to pay out the VAT tax, I am afraid I can't really make that much of it.

So Jaguar46.....you and I catch the same flight to London to buy the same new Jaguar cars for export to the States. I know that probably is not possible buying North American spec cars without going through a Jag dealer in the U.S. but saying that it was. I buy mine from a dealer in Birmingham and, keeping with the spirit of the VAT, does not charge me the Value Added Tax. Your London dealer charges you the VAT. You wouldn't feel like you were being slighted? Is this "fair" to you?

 

[SuinBruin]

My last post on this subject, I promise.

One of the points that Aero and its supporters have made is that there is no unfairness in the pricing because both EU and overseas buyers pay the exact same amount for a jacket.

This overlooks the fact that EU buyers are supposed to pay more for their jackets because of taxes. As an overseas buyer I should pay less because I am not supposed to pay tax on the transaction. That's the nature of taxation. (And the purchase isn't entirely tax-free for the overseas buyer, since import duties and customs may be charged.)

Is it fair for EU buyers to have to pay more than overseas buyers? Yes, since the additional cost to them is comprised of taxes that their government charges pursuant to the duly enacted legislative or regulatory process. If EU buyers think that taxes should be lower, or should be payable on exports, then they should take it up with their representatives.

I pay more for something from a California retailer than someone in, say, the UK will, because I have to pay California state taxes on the purchase. That's the law, and that's only fair since I live in California and they don't. (For instance, if I want to buy a new $900 fly rod from a fly shop in California, I'm going to pay an extra $80 or so in sales tax, whereas a foreign buyer won't. https://catalog.theflyshop.com/conditions.php.)

I'm sorry that VAT is so high for our European friends, but that is a political question. It doesn't make the VAT system any fairer for overseas buyers to pay a VAT-inflated price. It may make residents of the EU feel better (or for some of them at least it seems to) that foreigners are paying the same total amount that they are, but it doesn't make it fair or ethical, especially when the 20% VAT add-on is concealed from overseas buyers.

The bottom line is that domestic purchases are supposed to be more expensive as they include a tax component that isn't chargeable on exports.

 

[Persimmon]

My last post on this subject, I promise.

One of the points that Aero and its supporters have made is that there is no unfairness in the pricing because both EU and overseas buyers pay the exact same amount for a jacket.

This overlooks the fact that EU buyers are supposed to pay more for their jackets because of taxes. As an overseas buyer I should pay less because I am not supposed to pay tax on the transaction. That's the nature of taxation. (And the purchase isn't entirely tax-free for the overseas buyer, since import duties and customs may be charged.)

Is it fair for EU buyers to have to pay more than overseas buyers? Yes, since the additional cost to them is comprised of taxes that their government charges pursuant to the duly enacted legislative or regulatory process. If EU buyers think that taxes should be lower, or should be payable on exports, then they should take it up with their representatives.

I pay more for something from a California retailer than someone in, say, the UK will, because I have to pay California state taxes on the purchase. That's the law, and that's only fair since I live in California and they don't. (For instance, if I want to buy a new $900 fly rod from a fly shop in California, I'm going to pay an extra $80 or so in sales tax, whereas a foreign buyer won't. https://catalog.theflyshop.com/conditions.php.)

I'm sorry that VAT is so high for our European friends, but that is a political question. It doesn't make the VAT system any fairer for overseas buyers to pay a VAT-inflated price. It may make residents of the EU feel better (or for some of them at least it seems to) that foreigners are paying the same total amount that they are, but it doesn't make it fair or ethical, especially when the 20% VAT add-on is concealed from overseas buyers.

The bottom line is that domestic purchases are supposed to be more expensive as they include a tax component that isn't chargeable on exports.

Totally correct.

I live in the UK and accept the taxation rules that makes the country work.
I have no objection if you or any non European individual can buy a jacket etc cheaper.

I personally found the Aero and Eastman lack of clarity to be the main issue for me.

Second issue for me was the ease that the "friends" can close down free speech on this subject to help the manufacturer retailers in question.
That was interesting !!

But the Aero and Eastman "friends" whether here and on the Hat lounge will think still that you are a pain in the Ass for complaining about it.
But then perhaps it is in their interest to have such thoughts ????