Eastman / Aero price gouging on overseas sales

[m444uk]

Differential pricing is a completely different issue. There are many factors that go into pricing an item in a particular market, including exchange rate, cost of doing business/overhead, costs to import, taxation, etc

No, it's exactly what Aero are doing and for some of the reasons you then list !

C'mon, really?

Here's the nub, and why "differential pricing" is not the issue.

Aero and ELC charge one retail price in the UK and a different retail price abroad and conceal the difference under the cover of VAT.

Anybody in the EU can compare prices for Levi's, Apple, Nikon, Sony, etc. on the internet and see who is paying what where. How does an American consumer who knows nothing about VAT tell that he or she is paying 20% more for an Aero or ELC jacket than a buyer in Britain, or France, or Germany? The VAT element is being used to conceal the true retail price. That's not "differential pricing," that's just dishonest.

Moreover, because Aero and ELC do not have retail or wholesale presence outside of the UK (unlike, say, Apple) and are not engaging in mass exportation, they aren't subject to additional overhead, or import costs, or exchange rate costs, or taxation, which might account for "differential pricing." They've just found a way to conceal an extra 20% in their overseas sales and they've taken advantage.

No, the issue of whether a price is concealed or not has no bearing on the decision to use a differential pricing structure. It's routinely done by a whole host of different measures.
It is not the duty of a company to explain to a goat herder in Outer Mongolia the tax structures in the EU. If this Mongolian fellow contacted Lewis leathers in London and specially asked about tax free exports, they may or may not, be willing to oblige him.

BTW. Aero and ELC have retail dealers. Aero have 3 or 4 in Germany and lots in Japan their biggest market.

https://www.original-fliegerjacken.de/d ... n_aero.php

 

[SuinBruin]

I am still curious to know what is the motive in attacking two small family run businesses that offer superb products. Yes I know you are cross because of the concealed VAT, but beyond that, what is the reason ?

What is the motive for defending them? Offering "superb products" isn't saying much if they are overpriced and come with, say, poor customer service (to say nothing of misleading business practices).

People don't like paying more for products than they have to, especially for larger purchases and especially where an overcharge is hidden or concealed. I bought a car this year and the dealer stuck an additional $1k on the price in the final (very lengthy and wordy) contract. If I hadn't read it carefully I wouldn't have noticed and would have been gouged out of $1,000. You can bet your @$$ I will never buy there again, and if I belonged to a "New Honda Cars" forum I'd have posted about it.

 

[Jeff M]

B2 Roughwear cap Price 69.99, Quantity 1,Sub Total 69.99, UK Shipping 0.00, VAT 11.67. Sorry, no pound signs as I use a US configured keyboard. All figures taken from Receipt ELC 000000752 from 25/10/2011.

Thanks.
As of today, the B2 Roughwear cap is listed at 89.99.
Hard to tell what was done back 10 months ago...or today.
Since ELC does add a VAT amount to the receipt for UK sales...on those UK sales do they decrease the advertised price by that % then add it back on to get to the price on their web site...or do they add the VAT on TOP of the web site advertised price?
I don't think it's the latter, as I was told there is no additional charge added to the price shown on the web site for UK sales.

 

[SuinBruin]

No, the issue of whether a price is concealed or not has no bearing on the decision to use a differential pricing structure. It's routinely done by a whole host of different measures.
It is not the duty of a company to explain to a goat herder in Outer Mongolia the tax structures in the EU. If this Mongolian fellow contacted Lewis leathers in London and specially asked about tax free exports, they may or may not, be willing to oblige him.

BTW. Aero and ELC have retail dealers. Aero have 3 or 4 in Germany and lots in Japan their biggest market.

https://www.original-fliegerjacken.de/d ... n_aero.php

LOL. You seem to be feeling some sort of remorse over having "outed" your British compatriots for their VAT-inclusive pricing. You and I both know what is really going on and I have no interest in repeatedly knocking down your straw men.

It's easy to come up with all sorts of post hoc rationalizations for someone's business practices but if it doesn't pass the smell test, it doesn't pass the smell test. Everyone can decide for himself how he wants to spend his money but hopefully now buyers here and on the hat place are a little better educated about how things really are.

Edited to add: Let's not forget your very own words on the subject--

Are you guys Stateside getting 20% off the advertised Eastman web price ? You should be as it includes 20% UK vat (sales tax) which is not payable on exports out of the EU.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12642&start=30#p118005

It's at times like this that I am glad for the limits on the edit feature on the forum.

 

[ButteMT61]

m444uk wrote:
Are you guys Stateside getting 20% off the advertised Eastman web price ? You should be as it includes 20% UK vat (sales tax) which is not payable on exports out of the EU.

---------------

Oops.

 

[m444uk]

No, the issue of whether a price is concealed or not has no bearing on the decision to use a differential pricing structure. It's routinely done by a whole host of different measures.
It is not the duty of a company to explain to a goat herder in Outer Mongolia the tax structures in the EU. If this Mongolian fellow contacted Lewis leathers in London and specially asked about tax free exports, they may or may not, be willing to oblige him.

BTW. Aero and ELC have retail dealers. Aero have 3 or 4 in Germany and lots in Japan their biggest market.

https://www.original-fliegerjacken.de/d ... n_aero.php

LOL. You seem to be feeling some sort of remorse over having "outed" your British compatriots for their VAT-inclusive pricing. You and I both know what is really going on and I have no interest in repeatedly knocking down your straw men.

It's easy to come up with all sorts of post hoc rationalizations for someone's business practices but if it doesn't pass the smell test, it doesn't pass the smell test. Everyone can decide for himself how he wants to spend his money but hopefully now buyers here and on the hat place are a little better educated about how things really are.

Edited to add: Let's not forget your very own words on the subject--

Are you guys Stateside getting 20% off the advertised Eastman web price ? You should be as it includes 20% UK vat (sales tax) which is not payable on exports out of the EU.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12642&start=30#p118005

It's at times like this that I am glad for the limits on the edit feature on the forum.

My position has not changed at all about Aero. See my post on page 3 in response to yours which said: Quote

"I'm not disagreeing with you. A volume exporter will always offer the tax free option as it gives them a price advantage. For me who has sold a grand total of 4 jackets in two years it's neither here nor there. There are other VAT registered members here . None display dual pricing here or on Ebay.

Aero is a medium size company so I would say what they are doing is wrong. As for Eastman, it depends on their volume. I said on the BK thread they are a small family business and I've never read anywhere how many jackets they actually make and what percentage go Stateside." End Quote.

 

[m444uk]

m444uk wrote:
Are you guys Stateside getting 20% off the advertised Eastman web price ? You should be as it includes 20% UK vat (sales tax) which is not payable on exports out of the EU.

---------------

Oops.

Why do you say oops ? Where have I said you should be paying VAT ?

In fact, why have you and others continued to be confused about VAT when my early posts helped explain it ! :shock:

 

[Vcruiser]

Yep..just down to arguing now.
If you see each others posistions repeated over and over again and again and again... it should be realised it ain't gonna change things/opponents by now no matter how you slice and dice it from your perspective. Won't be long until another post pops up and repeats " "Hey..how come you guys are raggin on ELC/Aero'?
Sorry..personally...I say..kudos to Paddy on the FL..!

Van

 

[ButteMT61]

Bbbbbut but it needs to play out Van. I mean, just look at how much more great data has been added since the gripe about the post shutting down...
It's deep fried and gettin' cold. Look at the data, and make a choice. To buy or or not to buy. It's all up to each person.

 

[m444uk]

It's already done - I contacted Paddy by PM and respectively asked the he re-open the thread as it is educational to both sides as long as it doesn't degrade into emotional personal attacks - and I don't see that happening with the calibre of posters we have here.

The hat stand place has closed the thread. Is Aero a sponsor of TFL ?

 

[Vcruiser]

Bbbbbut but it needs to play out Van. I mean, just look at how much more great data has been added since the gripe about the post shutting down...
It's deep fried and gettin' cold. Look at the data, and make a choice. To buy or or not to buy. It's all up to each person.

..Well I heard the fat lady singing loud a couple pages ago..but was muted by the static...the violins even faded to a murmur. Those that will understand..do understand..those that don't..just won't. More than enough data has been datafied. The simpleness of the question and objection...is being lost in too much reflection resurrection and ongoing infection. :?

 

[ButteMT61]

Bbbbbut but it needs to play out Van. I mean, just look at how much more great data has been added since the gripe about the post shutting down...
It's deep fried and gettin' cold. Look at the data, and make a choice. To buy or or not to buy. It's all up to each person.

..Well I heard the fat lady singing loud a couple pages ago..but was muted by the static...the violins even faded to a murmur. Those that will understand..do understand..those that don't..just won't. More than enough data has been datafied. The simpleness of the question and objection...is being lost in too much reflection resurrection and ongoing infection. :?

Not even the Right Reverend Jessie Jackson could have said it better! :lol:

 

[SuinBruin]

So you don't want me to stretch this thread out for another 10 or 15 pages? :cry: :mrgreen:

 

[Vcruiser]

So you don't want me to stretch this thread out for another 10 or 15 pages? :cry: :mrgreen:

Well I think you made your point...and a good one it was,Brother Bruin. (that should start another revival).
..But I say Aman and Amen :arrow: :idea:

 

[SuinBruin]

Praise the lord and pass the ammunition!

 

[Vcruiser]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEl2xvs4RG8[/video]

 

[derleicaman]

Hey Van, great video. Loved the pics of the B-29's. The Warbirds were here in NW Suburban Chicago from the Collings foundation and it was great to see them again. Introduced a good friend of mine to the joys of crawling thru a B-17 and B-24 and it was great fun!

 

[Vcruiser]

Hey Van, great video. Loved the pics of the B-29's. The Warbirds were here in NW Suburban Chicago from the Collings foundation and it was great to see them again. Introduced a good friend of mine to the joys of crawling thru a B-17 and B-24 and it was great fun!

Luckily I had the chance to do that same thing back in the '70s at Bunker Hill AFB(Grissom now)here in Indiana. Went with my Stepfather (WW2 mechanic & gunner shot down over Germany)who took me through each of the WW2 planes on display and pointed out and explained all the minute details. What a learning experience for me!
Van

 

[Hawkeye]

It's already done - I contacted Paddy by PM and respectively asked the he re-open the thread as it is educational to both sides as long as it doesn't degrade into emotional personal attacks - and I don't see that happening with the calibre of posters we have here.

The hat stand place has closed the thread. Is Aero a sponsor of TFL ?

No surprise there. The hat place goes into full emergency lockdown mode if someone forgets to say please and thank you at the end of a post :roll:

 

[John Lever]

My final word, Honest !
Two issues that have not been mentioned here-
For years Aero gave subsidised shipping to the US when the exchange rate was low. Will also told me that they are swallowing the costs of fulfilling the missing Aero USA orders, i.e. making jackets for free.
I hardly see these things as offering poor customer service.
My motives for defending them ?
1.To support small businesses in hard economic times - both companies are probably only just surviving. Will is the most helpful person to deal with he always has time to come to the phone.
2. Both have taken back jackets after several weeks to give full refunds.
3. Amazing discounts to me and Americans on this forum who are good customers.[ In the £100's on a jacket]
4. Making free prototypes e.g Radjacke