-
When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Eastman / Aero price gouging on overseas sales
- Thread starter SuinBruin
- Start date
Rutger
Well-Known Member
SuinBruin said:
As this entertaining discussion evolves on FL it's quite fun to see the many ways there are of "not getting the point", right up to total denial.
I thought there were some stubborn people up here, but holy cow, over there they got a few as well......... :lol:
For those who haven't followed (although it seems that a rather large number of the active part of VLJ also is a member of FL):
Aero has replied on FL with the main reasons for doing what they do.
Iirc the forum name of Aero is "cloudylemonade".
Main reasoning is that they balanced out some cost here, some VAT there, some extra time at left, some extra leather at right, some shipping costs up, some return cost down and in the end prices are what they are.
Having the major number of customers outside the EU, it is claimed that prices for UK customers are kept a bit lower by having foreign customers pay a little bit more to partly pay for the UK VAT that UK customers pay. So the price for sales abroad are actual prices with some extra profit (but I guess nowhere near 20%) to subsidize UK customers.
Furthermore, Aero says that they are paying the VAT for UK customers out of their own pocket, in order to be able to sell their jackets to the weak UK market.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Vcruiser
Well-Known Member
I just new that when this subject was also posted on the FL...there would be those running off on tangents that boggle the mind. True enough!
One guy is trying to explain all of the intricate rules and regulations of VAT(that should only pertain to certain countries (?)right?)...then,continues,how it is 'absorbed' by ELC/Aero..and with that..does miss the point of the thread completely. So absorbed himself with VAT..that he just can't understand life without it. Everybody should pay it and be involved!...unless of course it's graciously absorbed by a company somehow(?). Believe me..if something is 'absorbed' it is soaked up from the customers...even if they had no idea. Locals happily pay the VAT..but wait..it's been absorbed...and all others must also pay to make sure a mirade of other things are also 'absorbed' for them. So the explanation IS..the company pays the VAT tax FOR the locals...and fills out export paperwork FOR all other customers...absorbing both costs. Charging us all the same. Sounds much better that way doesn't it..... :shock:
Well..they can charge what they want to...but I don't see either of them 'absorbing' much of anything.
One guy is trying to explain all of the intricate rules and regulations of VAT(that should only pertain to certain countries (?)right?)...then,continues,how it is 'absorbed' by ELC/Aero..and with that..does miss the point of the thread completely. So absorbed himself with VAT..that he just can't understand life without it. Everybody should pay it and be involved!...unless of course it's graciously absorbed by a company somehow(?). Believe me..if something is 'absorbed' it is soaked up from the customers...even if they had no idea. Locals happily pay the VAT..but wait..it's been absorbed...and all others must also pay to make sure a mirade of other things are also 'absorbed' for them. So the explanation IS..the company pays the VAT tax FOR the locals...and fills out export paperwork FOR all other customers...absorbing both costs. Charging us all the same. Sounds much better that way doesn't it..... :shock:
Well..they can charge what they want to...but I don't see either of them 'absorbing' much of anything.
Andrew
Well-Known Member
Van, that's what struck me about what ELC told Jeff way back on page 1- they "absorbed" the VAT= that they kept the difference whilst suggesting that they took a hit on it. Unbloodybelievable;Vcruiser said:
"I received this reply from Gary when I asked him if they added the VAT to UK orders;
"Because we sell internationally, to keep things simple, we have the same price for everyone - for sales in the UK, we absorb the VAT element."""
m444uk
Active Member
Vcruiser said:
There are 27 countries in the EU. Sending a jacket to one of them is no more difficult than sending one from Scotland to England. In all cases there is no additional paperwork because the EU is a single market. The VAT is charged just once in Scotland.
Because it is a single market one country cannot cross subsidize another, it's a meaningless distinction.
m444uk
Active Member
Rutger said:
Generally speaking companies don't come onto public discussion forums and talk about their businesses strategies. Having read some of the posts here I can see why !
As for Aero it's very simple: There is a pre-tax EU price and a non-EU price which is 20% more. Apart from commodities differential pricing is the norm Worldwide.
m444uk said:
Amen! and well put, everything else is fluff. I'm totally failing to see any subterfuge in this practice.
Trying to argue that a business shouldn't take profit where they can is plainly stupid, and i also feel the urge to point out that we are all paying the same at the till... why would you care what the company in question was going on to do with the money?
SuinBruin
Well-Known Member
m444uk said:
http://www.cultizm.com/shop_content.php?coID=1cultizm.com said:
http://www.youmustcreate.com/payment-and-security/youmustcreate.com said:
http://www.pediwear.co.uk/orders/world.phppediwear.co.uk said:
I'm sure I could find dozens if not hundreds more examples from across the EU if I had the time. Some "norm."
unclegrumpy
Well-Known Member
I think the point is, if a company indeed wants to have two different prices for their products....in this case one for the UK and one for everyone else, then be upfront and just state that.
The "subterfuge" is the fudging around with the tax dollars collected...or not collected. Taxes should be a separate line item, and not something that a company profits from or games. Simply put, taxes are not a company's money to fool around with.
As far as "taking a profit where they can", I agree, a business should. However, I agree with SuinBruin that should be done in whatever they do to come up with their final pretax price, not in a slight of hand with faux taxes collected from customers who are not obliged to pay them.
The "subterfuge" is the fudging around with the tax dollars collected...or not collected. Taxes should be a separate line item, and not something that a company profits from or games. Simply put, taxes are not a company's money to fool around with.
As far as "taking a profit where they can", I agree, a business should. However, I agree with SuinBruin that should be done in whatever they do to come up with their final pretax price, not in a slight of hand with faux taxes collected from customers who are not obliged to pay them.
unclegrumpy said:
I think the confusion has come from some of those contributing to this thread, the law is completely clear. Goods sold outside of the EU are NOT subject to VAT. ELC, Aero and anyone else selling outside of the EU are not paying VAT on sales outside of the EU and i'd be very surprised if they claimed that they were.
The price you are paying is your final pretax price. We in the EU pay exactly the same price but the business must pay the VAT on sales made in the EU. There are no faux taxes being collected.
Using this method, it may be that US sales are more profitable to them (we don't know how much, i feel sure its not for the full amount) but what interest is it of ours what profit the manufacturer is making from us? We buy because we like the product. We don't make a decision on whether to buy on how large or small a companies margins are do we?
We all get hit in the wallet for the same amount, theres no way around it.
SuinBruin
Well-Known Member
No, we don't.omarco said:
Are EU purchasers from ELC and Aero subject to customs and import fees? No. But overseas purchasers are.
Are EU purchasers from ELC and Aero subject to additional VAT and/or sales taxes? No. But overseas purchasers are. (See Geir's comments earlier in the thread. Also, California residents are supposed to declare and pay tax on goods bought outside of California.)
Are foreign purchasers from ELC and Aero getting the benefits of the taxes paid by EU buyers (health care, roads, schools, police, etc.)? No, of course not. EU buyers benefit from their taxes; non-EU buyers don't.
So, no, we're not getting the same thing for the same price.
Also, looking at what is paid is only one side of the coin. What are ELC and Aero receiving from each sale? Why are they willing to accept 83% of what they get from foreign buyers for domestic sales? If they will sell to a UK customer at x, why can't I also get it at x? Why do I have to pay 1.2x?
If they want to have discriminatory pricing, OK, that's their business decision. But buyers should know exactly what they're paying and for what. That's the free market in action.
derleicaman
Member
unclegrumpy said:
Well said, and this sums things up nicely!
No matter what your position on this issue is, and I've read some real doozies here and on FL, we at least have some real useful info with which to make future buying decisions from EU outfits. Something we did not have the benefit of before this thread started here on the sleepy jacket forum! This is where this forum can be of real service to the members. Thank you guys.
m444uk
Active Member
SuinBruin said:
Eh ?? What are all these links for ? The YMC one is originally from me, that's where I got by ELC B-3 from.
An example of differential pricing would be Nikon (UK) listing a significantly higher pre-tax price for the new D800 than Nikon (USA) because they deem the market can support it.
SuinBruin said:
Its semantics, i give the same amount of my cash to ELC/Aero as you would and i can only repeat, what interest is it of ours how large or small their margin is or indeed how much of that money they keep.. or give to charity.. or give to the tax man?
With regards to the extra charges levied upon you when importing, we in the EU are subject to the same or more when we import goods from outside the US. why not use the official US agent?
I think this revelation that that the price paid outside of the EU does not include VAT is anything but - why would anyone think that the US price did include VAT? They are a limited company and as such are encouraged by they're shareholders to make a profit, if the prices they have set for the US market are sustainable then why should they lower them? The free market is working perfectly well, they have set a price and many people are buying they're products, both in the EU and abroad. I can't see why anyone would take such exception to a clear pricing strategy but all one can do in that situation is vote with their dollars.
These threads have a habit of going round in circles
With respect
Marco
derleicaman
Member
An example of differential pricing would be Nikon (UK) listing a significantly higher pre-tax price for the new D800 than Nikon (USA) because they deem the market can support it.[/quote]
Nikon does in fact employ differential pricing for their products in different markets around the world, even taking into account the VAT portion of the price. Other camera companies do this as well. I was in the camera business for over 20 years, so I know this to be the case. There also other factors such as the excahnge rate, and I know for a fact that the camera companies buy dollar/EU futures to help stabilize prices.
Nikon does in fact employ differential pricing for their products in different markets around the world, even taking into account the VAT portion of the price. Other camera companies do this as well. I was in the camera business for over 20 years, so I know this to be the case. There also other factors such as the excahnge rate, and I know for a fact that the camera companies buy dollar/EU futures to help stabilize prices.
SuinBruin
Well-Known Member
And Paddy has shut down the hat place thread, with a post chock full of gratitude to Aero for deigning to respond to the criticisms made. :roll:
It's good to be reminded why I never bothered signing up with the FL in the first place. I appreciate the much lighter moderation touch here, letting people politely explore and debate the topic.
It's good to be reminded why I never bothered signing up with the FL in the first place. I appreciate the much lighter moderation touch here, letting people politely explore and debate the topic.
ButteMT61
Well-Known Member
It's really more a case of playing a topic out I think. TFL knew this was going on a while, and let it go. But it's painfully obvious that there is no conclusion to be reached on the topic. Once everyone has their say - 8-10x, there's really not much more to add other than arguing. Now that the data is out there, people can choose what to do with their dollars. At some point it has to die, and really, I see no new information being posted - just arguments on one side or the other...
It's been fun. But I have some jackets to sell. :lol:
It's been fun. But I have some jackets to sell. :lol:
bfrench
Administrator
cloudylemonade said:
In Canada, when our national Federal Sales Tax was removed and a Goods and Services Tax was levied the whole point of it was to make it transparent so the end user who bought the product knew exactly how much tax was being paid. It is exactly the opposite of the VAT which is supposedly hidden so as not to confuse and horrify the EU buyer - looks as if their governments seem to think these people are so sensitive that they can't stand the truth.
But then again it could be a government smoke and mirrors thing to keep the populace fooled.
When I'm purchasing a commodity I just want the production cost and profit to reflect the price - I can figure out how much I'm being charged for tax. I want to see exactly how much I'm giving to Big Brother for the privilege of spending my after tax dollars.
