I'm with you there J.H. What I started as just a 'heads-up' about a new jacket on the market predictably turned into a heated and at times bigotted debate, the only voice of sense and reason was J.C. himself. I am now aware that there will be certain members who clearly enjoy as we English say "winding us up". I have never knowingly shown any bias towards any particular repro makers' jacket, there are no 'perfect' ones out there just as there were no 'perfect' originals either...I guess therefore the jackets are just like us, imperfect and with flaws!
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New ELC '50-Cal' A-2!
- Thread starter havocpaul
- Start date
JACKET_ HEAD said:
the forum isn't what it used to be........i don't really see the BIG DOGS posting or sharing their collections no more.
i mean those guys had collections which are in the stratosphere.
Think published jkts as in the McGuires and Conway books.
can't be good for the forum where most jkts shared are from ebay, NO DISRESPECT meant.
I mean jkts gotten from ebay are well jkts from ebay....I remember contrailchaser sold a published jkt for $6600 on ebay a couple of years back BUT that was contrailchaser NO MERE ebayer. And he used to share his collection on the forum. Used to........don't see him posting no more!
sure I could get flake for my post but someone's got to talk about qualite'........and perpective.
and will the repro queens stop taking over the forum..........
sad.........sniff........sniff
269sqnhudson
Active Member
Jeez guys, this is boring. Change of direction.....
I'd say that new .50 cal from Eastman is an interesting addition. I hope they'll do one without the pre-wear. Think I'll email gary and find out. I've had a few Eastman A-2s and always liked them and i once had a Pearl Harbor without the pre-wear that was great.
Never had a Goodwear but I'm sure they're good too, how about that for fair.
T
I'd say that new .50 cal from Eastman is an interesting addition. I hope they'll do one without the pre-wear. Think I'll email gary and find out. I've had a few Eastman A-2s and always liked them and i once had a Pearl Harbor without the pre-wear that was great.
Never had a Goodwear but I'm sure they're good too, how about that for fair.
T
A
Anonymous
Guest
[edited by J_H]
The point of my post was to point out that whilst attention to the minutest detail is something that some wish to focus on, it was not a concern to those who were issued the jackets, nor is it a reason to slag people off over if they don't share that interest. Can we not agree to allow lesser mortals who only want to have a jacket that they like and feel good wearing to be regarded as human beings with equal value and right to hold their views ?
J_H
The point of my post was to point out that whilst attention to the minutest detail is something that some wish to focus on, it was not a concern to those who were issued the jackets, nor is it a reason to slag people off over if they don't share that interest. Can we not agree to allow lesser mortals who only want to have a jacket that they like and feel good wearing to be regarded as human beings with equal value and right to hold their views ?
J_H
A
Anonymous
Guest
havocpaul said:
I suppose though Paul, that whilst we like the jackets for their individuality, imperfections and flaws, some seem not to respect those same differences in fellow human beings ! :roll:
J_H
the forum isn't what it used to be........i don't really see the BIG DOGS posting or sharing their collections no more.
I think the fact that the forum has moved around on different servers over the last couple of years has been a deterrent since so much of what was posted before is not accesible anymore (or is it and I just don't know?) I especially liked the reviews. Plus, it is summer in the NH and people don't think about jackets all that much. Hopefully the posts will return. I, for one, like discussions about repro's because I couldn't afford an original if one were available in my size. duke
I think the fact that the forum has moved around on different servers over the last couple of years has been a deterrent since so much of what was posted before is not accesible anymore (or is it and I just don't know?) I especially liked the reviews. Plus, it is summer in the NH and people don't think about jackets all that much. Hopefully the posts will return. I, for one, like discussions about repro's because I couldn't afford an original if one were available in my size. duke
A
Anonymous
Guest
Jacket Head:
What are you- Jacket Ghandi? Listen to me again bub- what the crewmen originally issued the jackets thought about them has nothing to do with what I find interesting about them. I'm not "slagging people off" but I sure as hell am not going to say something's good when it's not! People can hold their views all they want but that's not going to make crappy repros any better. I don't get it- what do you want? I feel I hold off REALLY criticising stuff people post.
What are you- Jacket Ghandi? Listen to me again bub- what the crewmen originally issued the jackets thought about them has nothing to do with what I find interesting about them. I'm not "slagging people off" but I sure as hell am not going to say something's good when it's not! People can hold their views all they want but that's not going to make crappy repros any better. I don't get it- what do you want? I feel I hold off REALLY criticising stuff people post.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Havoc Paul:
WTF?? What does that mean? An original by definition is a perfect A-2 of some sort- it's little flaws and anomalies just make it all the more interesting. And there are repros that try to come close to capturing that essence- so I would say that there are repros that are close to perfect. We in the VLJ are lightweights- go to a reenactor forum (except an AAF one for some reason) and check out the attention to detail those people expect.
WTF?? What does that mean? An original by definition is a perfect A-2 of some sort- it's little flaws and anomalies just make it all the more interesting. And there are repros that try to come close to capturing that essence- so I would say that there are repros that are close to perfect. We in the VLJ are lightweights- go to a reenactor forum (except an AAF one for some reason) and check out the attention to detail those people expect.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Er-uh- hello! ?!! I went to the link to the Eastman site- saw the jacket- what more do you want? I can see where the finish was buffed off the pocket snap so it looks like a big eye- I can see the razor straight Eastman pattern- I can glean enough from the website photos to know I'm not too impressed! The problems I see aren't caused by bad photography- they are the usual Eastman fare. Sorry! On the positive- nice zipper!havocpaul said:
bfrench
Administrator
jacketimp said:
Hi, Folks,
For some convoluted reason, I feel a need to jump in here, not as a mod but as a member who has never seen an original but only a few repros.
This topic the Paul started is part of the resources we have available through our membership - info on a new jacket design from one of the top five repro makers - just the thing to whet our insatiable appetites for repro jackets.
Then as usual with our forum - and this may very well be the reason why we're still alive and active - the topic was hijacked and took a few different courses. No big deal - that's part of what I like - the way we as a group meander all over the place while kind of trying to walk a straight line.
A few egos get inflated - a few get hurt - a few insults fly back and forth but on a whole it gets back on track because we the members basically police ourselves - makes life as a mod very easy.
Now unfortunately, in the meantime, we've also driven away some very serious collectors and repro makers will not have anything to do with us - kind of like taking a poison pill on their part. But we still manage to educate ourselves as to the nuances of the original contracts compared to the repros.
A little change of direction here - who would have guessed :lol:
As Rotenhahn says, we're all partially OCD when we talk jackets and are all looking for the holy grail which in our minds would be the perfect replication of a certain contract.
And as Rotenhahn and others have pointed out, there were inconsistencies in individual contracts causing the lack of permanent pattern quality.
So there will never be a perfect replica A-2 because someone somewhere has an original that looks different due to these flaws - hence the quest for the holy grail becomes a circular journey across a limitless plain having no start or finish.
Moving on to the repro makers - let's start with Good Wear as JC seems to be near the top in many people's eyes. John makes a jacket based as closely as possible on the disassembly of a few originals plus the exposure to thousands of originals and pictures over the years. The leather he uses is a compromise because we can't buy leather that was made in the 1940s - environmental changes have changed the process - so right from the start we have an inaccuracy beyond his control - so no holy grail here - but a jacket made as closely as possible to an original without original certified patterns to use. But JG'c customer base is the exclusive custom order group wanting the as close as possible to original as humanly possible.
And when they get the jacket - it is 1940 in a box - but in a lot of cases that style of pattern no longer fits the customer due to age increasing the body proportions, incorrect measurements given to JC or just plain ordering a jacket that is to tight.
Next we go to ELC - here's a company that's been around for a while - I don't know their timeline - really doesn't matter - they make quality jackets or they'd have disappeared long ago.
Now they have studied designs plus also how clothing fits people today and make their patterns work toward that end.
Are they exact originals - certainly not - but they give the perception of an original at a glance.
Same goes for RMNZ, The Few, Aero of Scotland.
Some of these will custom build your jacket to fit your requirements and giving you the satisfaction of having a jacket that has "The Look" according to your eye.
Then there are guys like me - mid 60's - pear shaped - square shouldered and who still want to wear a flight jacket because to me a flight jacket is a part of my persona - 37 years flying general aviation planes and I'll always be a pilot in my mind - it's my way of hanging on to my youth.
Would a Good Wear fit me??? Probably with a lot of cstomization but then again it's not an original looking repro anymore - so I stick with the square shouldered baggy waisted A-2s made by Gibson and Barnes ( formerly Flight Suits) and they'll give you a little movement on arm length so that in my mind I have a jacket that'll give me "The Look".
Is it an original looking jacket? - NO - Would it fit in with a group of WWII airmen if a pic was done in black and white - probably - will it be something I'll wear all the time - you betcha - are the discrepancies too much for me to be disappointed in the jacket and sell it on - no - absolutely no.
So to wind up - what I'm saying is that there is room for all the repro makers - yes, even makers such as US Wings because primarily not everyone wants to spend $1000.00 to have correct stitching and the collar sewn to the mid point of the wind flap - they can live with the flaws.
There is also the fact of body types - we're not all 20 year olds weighing approximately 145 pounds and 5'8" tall - so maybe only a certain repro maker will fit pleasurably and comfortably.
Thank our lucky stars we have these repro makers around - look what it was like in the 70's and 80's.
Now back to personalities - we all have our opinions and expressing our points of view on the forum is so much harder than if face to face - so instead of flaming someone for a specific statement consider what may be the hidden intent of what is written. We're all her to learn and to discuss the finer points of each contract - let's not trash something when we can just point out a comparison to an original to get the point across.
Finally - being an OCD type - I can still respect the work of all the repro makers and imagine the the financial decisions they have to make in order to get the darn things to sell - they must walk a vert thin line.
Bill French
kkochheiser
Member
bfrench said:jacketimp said:
Hi, Folks,
For some convoluted reason, I feel a need to jump in here, not as a mod but as a member who has never seen an original but only a few repros.
This topic the Paul started is part of the resources we have available through our membership - info on a new jacket design from one of the top five repro makers - just the thing to whet our insatiable appetites for repro jackets.
Then as usual with our forum - and this may very well be the reason why we're still alive and active - the topic was hijacked and took a few different courses. No big deal - that's part of what I like - the way we as a group meander all over the place while kind of trying to walk a straight line.
A few egos get inflated - a few get hurt - a few insults fly back and forth but on a whole it gets back on track because we the members basically police ourselves - makes life as a mod very easy.
Now unfortunately, in the meantime, we've also driven away some very serious collectors and repro makers will not have anything to do with us - kind of like taking a poison pill on their part. But we still manage to educate ourselves as to the nuances of the original contracts compared to the repros.
A little change of direction here - who would have guessed :lol:
As Rotenhahn says, we're all partially OCD when we talk jackets and are all looking for the holy grail which in our minds would be the perfect replication of a certain contract.
And as Rotenhahn and others have pointed out, there were inconsistencies in individual contracts causing the lack of permanent pattern quality.
So there will never be a perfect replica A-2 because someone somewhere has an original that looks different due to these flaws - hence the quest for the holy grail becomes a circular journey across a limitless plain having no start or finish.
Moving on to the repro makers - let's start with Good Wear as JC seems to be near the top in many people's eyes. John makes a jacket based as closely as possible on the disassembly of a few originals plus the exposure to thousands of originals and pictures over the years. The leather he uses is a compromise because we can't buy leather that was made in the 1940s - environmental changes have changed the process - so right from the start we have an inaccuracy beyond his control - so no holy grail here - but a jacket made as closely as possible to an original without original certified patterns to use. But JG'c customer base is the exclusive custom order group wanting the as close as possible to original as humanly possible.
And when they get the jacket - it is 1940 in a box - but in a lot of cases that style of pattern no longer fits the customer due to age increasing the body proportions, incorrect measurements given to JC or just plain ordering a jacket that is to tight.
Next we go to ELC - here's a company that's been around for a while - I don't know their timeline - really doesn't matter - they make quality jackets or they'd have disappeared long ago.
Now they have studied designs plus also how clothing fits people today and make their patterns work toward that end.
Are they exact originals - certainly not - but they give the perception of an original at a glance.
Same goes for RMNZ, The Few, Aero of Scotland.
Some of these will custom build your jacket to fit your requirements and giving you the satisfaction of having a jacket that has "The Look" according to your eye.
Then there are guys like me - mid 60's - pear shaped - square shouldered and who still want to wear a flight jacket because to me a flight jacket is a part of my persona - 37 years flying general aviation planes and I'll always be a pilot in my mind - it's my way of hanging on to my youth.
Would a Good Wear fit me??? Probably with a lot of cstomization but then again it's not an original looking repro anymore - so I stick with the square shouldered baggy waisted A-2s made by Gibson and Barnes ( formerly Flight Suits) and they'll give you a little movement on arm length so that in my mind I have a jacket that'll give me "The Look".
Is it an original looking jacket? - NO - Would it fit in with a group of WWII airmen if a pic was done in black and white - probably - will it be something I'll wear all the time - you betcha - are the discrepancies too much for me to be disappointed in the jacket and sell it on - no - absolutely no.
So to wind up - what I'm saying is that there is room for all the repro makers - yes, even makers such as US Wings because primarily not everyone wants to spend $1000.00 to have correct stitching and the collar sewn to the mid point of the wind flap - they can live with the flaws.
There is also the fact of body types - we're not all 20 year olds weighing approximately 145 pounds and 5'8" tall - so maybe only a certain repro maker will fit pleasurably and comfortably.
Thank our lucky stars we have these repro makers around - look what it was like in the 70's and 80's.
Now back to personalities - we all have our opinions and expressing our points of view on the forum is so much harder than if face to face - so instead of flaming someone for a specific statement consider what may be the hidden intent of what is written. We're all her to learn and to discuss the finer points of each contract - let's not trash something when we can just point out a comparison to an original to get the point across.
Finally - being an OCD type - I can still respect the work of all the repro makers and imagine the the financial decisions they have to make in order to get the darn things to sell - they must walk a vert thin line.
Bill French
Thank you Bill. Well said for me as well.
Kent
bill,
thumbs up fopr a fantastik write-up.........sure you didn't have help?
Ok you gotta hate me..........
I'm 51, weighs 145ibs with a 30 inch waist, 38-40 inch chest.........guess that makes me a freak, eh?
don't believe guys?
paul havoc, will you tell these unbelievers........
pilates, anyone? that i teach to put a roof under my head, food into my mouth and A2s onto me.
cheerio!
thumbs up fopr a fantastik write-up.........sure you didn't have help?
Ok you gotta hate me..........
I'm 51, weighs 145ibs with a 30 inch waist, 38-40 inch chest.........guess that makes me a freak, eh?
don't believe guys?
paul havoc, will you tell these unbelievers........
pilates, anyone? that i teach to put a roof under my head, food into my mouth and A2s onto me.
cheerio!
Now unfortunately, in the meantime, we've also driven away some very serious collectors and repro makers will not have anything to do with us - kind of like taking a poison pill on their part. But we still manage to educate ourselves as to the nuances of the original contracts compared to the repros.
mmmmmmmmmm
come to think of it, haven't heard from the following for quite some time:
a) paul sanders
b)contrailchaser
c) bddesigns........brooks/dosceventos...still see him selling on ebay so he's still around
do we need them..........DO THEY NEED US???
repro makers?
GW is one of us right? I mean JC.
mmmmmmmmmm
come to think of it, haven't heard from the following for quite some time:
a) paul sanders
b)contrailchaser
c) bddesigns........brooks/dosceventos...still see him selling on ebay so he's still around
do we need them..........DO THEY NEED US???
repro makers?
GW is one of us right? I mean JC.
So there will never be a perfect replica A-2 because someone somewhere has an original that looks different due to these flaws - hence the quest for the holy grail becomes a circular journey across a limitless plain having no start or finish.
NOT the way the thread has been going.....don't believe me?
let's wait for the next repro thread..........then THE WHEEL WILL COME FULL CIRCLE
my game? devil's advocate :twisted:
NOT the way the thread has been going.....don't believe me?
let's wait for the next repro thread..........then THE WHEEL WILL COME FULL CIRCLE
my game? devil's advocate :twisted:
Cliff
Member
I may have to give up collecting repros then and just stick to A2s that have been actually issued to the military.............
Aahhh ! thats better an original Cooper :lol: :lol:
[img]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g18/Cliff_Dawes/A2.jpg[/img]
Aahhh ! thats better an original Cooper :lol: :lol:
[img]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g18/Cliff_Dawes/A2.jpg[/img]
