New ELC '50-Cal' A-2!

[Tim P]

I think we can now take it as a given that the goodwear clothing company is the current favourite and not without cause. however... take this hypothetical situation
Post#1 ' I have just bought an aero real deal in seal, with a bit of hot water and sandpapering that baby is going to look like I was born in it.
reply; 'if you had bought a Goodwear it would look wore in from scratch'

post #2 woW, can't believe my luck, a size 46 roughwear with only light mothing to the cuffs and some lining separation at the collar
reply ; well, a goodwear roughwear would come without those flaws and could be worn with confidence

post #3 what does everyone think of mcCoys werber?
reply; Goodwear is less to ship in the CONUS

If every thread we post gravitates towards congratulating John on his excellent work whilst dismissing the competition summarily, this forum will get a bit blah.
It is natural to compare like for like but no-one was really doing a pre burnished A2 (pre sanded yes) until this innovation were they? (or were they?) Johns jackets owe their tendency to age to the leather he chooses Eastman choose different hides and produce all from glossy smooth rock hard perfect jackets, through the distressed pearl harbour and the grainier warhorse to this .50 cal so lets applaud that for what it is.

 

[jacketimp]

I think we can now take it as a given that the goodwear clothing company is the current favourite and not without cause. however... take this hypothetical situation
Post#1 ' I have just bought an aero real deal in seal, with a bit of hot water and sandpapering that baby is going to look like I was born in it.
reply; 'if you had bought a Goodwear it would look wore in from scratch'

post #2 woW, can't believe my luck, a size 46 roughwear with only light mothing to the cuffs and some lining separation at the collar
reply ; well, a goodwear roughwear would come without those flaws and could be worn with confidence

post #3 what does everyone think of mcCoys werber?
reply; Goodwear is less to ship in the CONUS

If every thread we post gravitates towards congratulating John on his excellent work whilst dismissing the competition summarily, this forum will get a bit blah.
It is natural to compare like for like but no-one was really doing a pre burnished A2 (pre sanded yes) until this innovation were they? (or were they?) Johns jackets owe their tendency to age to the leather he chooses Eastman choose different hides and produce all from glossy smooth rock hard perfect jackets, through the distressed pearl harbour and the grainier warhorse to this .50 cal so lets applaud that for what it is.

ouch..........you hit the nail on the head!

encore!.........

 

[Anonymous]

Tim P.

Post#1 ' I have just bought an aero real deal in seal, with a bit of hot water and sandpapering that baby is going to look like I was born in it.
reply; 'if you had bought a Goodwear it would look wore in from scratch'

Exactly wrong my friend- what I said is that a Goodwear doesn't need sanding, hotwatering or any other treatment to look "right"! You can sand, hot water or wear an Eastman or Aero 'til the cows come home and their innate flaws of detail and fit won't be corrected. A GW will look cool new (and not "wore in") and old (and "wore in") just like an original would.

post #2 woW, can't believe my luck, a size 46 roughwear with only light mothing to the cuffs and some lining separation at the collar
reply ; well, a goodwear roughwear would come without those flaws and could be worn with confidence

Exactly right!

If every thread we post gravitates towards congratulating John on his excellent work whilst dismissing the competition summarily, this forum will get a bit blah.
It is natural to compare like for like but no-one was really doing a pre burnished A2 (pre sanded yes) until this innovation were they

Does EVERY post gravitate toward congratulating John? Or just my posts? I stick by my "dismissing the competition summarily" because it is possible to do so if what they're doing is copying WW2 jackets. They simply aren't in the same league- sorry! Why is criticizing repro jackets so controversial if it's true? Not true you say- then argue- show me why an Eastman's previously enumerated flaws aren't really there! What's subjective about about the wrong leather or weird shape or improperly sewn details? Like I said- do you want me to post a very specific list? Ironically- I would say if you're a new collector and want a cool-looking WW2 jacket you're better off buying a Gibson and Barnes- more bang for your buck!

 

[jacketimp]

yawn...........

 

[greyhound52]

yawn...........

Agree hey can't we all just get along? :lol:

 

[Tim P]

Rotenhahn you raise valid points of course. I hope that you see my opinions as valid too.
It is patently obvious that John's jackets capture every nuance of a ww2 flight jacket. That said, the only Goodwear I have owned was drastically tight on the shoulder whilst fitting everywhere else. I plan to get another from a different contract when funds permit. John uses cowhide on some jackets to better simulate the way horsehide was tanned backaways I recall reading. did I get that wrong?
now, given that I was raised on a good diet in the 60's and 70's. I have some shoulders on me but original militaria fits me perfectly. My 46 poughkeepsie and my 48 Aero originals were superb fits as are my 44 service tunics, Ikes and ETO jackets, Navy dress blues, whites and british size 18 battledress so I dont buy into this modern physique malarkey. I have encounterd enough 5'7" 19 year olds with 36-38 chests to realise that we have not come that far evolution wise.
I like the fit of my McCoys dubow, eastman star and cable. properly worn in, like any leather jacket, they develop character and comfort. I am not a fan of front quarter horsehide but some may be and it has to be said that with each leather jacket wearing in differently even some G&B and Coopers sometimes make you look twice.
Eastman .50 cal is not for me mainly due to the details. I like a scallop on the pocket flap for instance but I applaud their clear ability to provide a range of products to suit tastes. Like the japs, like the Kiwis and latterly like John.

 

[Hamsterbear]

Well, well, well....
I just think the pendulum has swung in a different direction. So what's the big deal if people like JC's jackets? Or don't?
How did I get started in this forum? It all began on the old Yahoo groups "Classic 20th",started by (I believe if not mistaken) Mr. Ken Calder of , ahem... AERO LEATHER! At that time the entire forum, chat or whatever you call it was biased towards TransAtlanticTrading Co. A.K.A "Aero Leather" jackets, A-2's and so on. I even sent for that "Buyers guide to A-2 jackets", and wasn't that a one-sided ADVERTISMENT for their own product. According to that, they were the best, and all others were inferior, and had something to "HIDE" ( cowhide vs HH or goat), and so on. I even ordered a A-2 from them, and it was a disappointment, as well as a D-1 Sheepskin I got from them. I find their jackets are cut wrong (for me) , and lack what I want in a reproduction WWII flight jacket- I find them too short in the body and too long in the arms. However, back then, had I voiced any dissatisfaction with their product, I would have basically been shouted down.
So, if you don't like Johns jackets, or find RMNZ, Eastman, Aero, G&B or even Cooper or Avirex a better choice for fit, style, budget or whatever, that's good for you. We have so many choices for reproduction jackets these days, compared to the late 1970's and early 80's when the choices were about 10% of what we have now. Let Gary Eastman have his "50-Cal" jacket, and his "Pearl Harbor" ones, and all the others as well. That's just more choices for us.
-Brian
BTW- my two best A-2 reproductions are a G&B goatskin, and a Sefton A-2 that I had Jerome paint the back for me. If I could buy another Sefton, I would ( I look for them on eBay), but sadly he doesn't make them anymore. Any one of our favorite jacket makers could fold up shop and fade away, you never know.

 

[deeb7]

post #3 what does everyone think of mcCoys werber?
reply; Goodwear is less to ship in the CONUS

counter reply; but McCoys have never charged to ship anywhere.

 

[Vcruiser]

Yeah...and when Chris started his first VLJ..the Eastmanites came on board and blasted anything Aero...and the wars began. At that time ELC sure didn't fit my build. Blousey balloons with paper thin fragile knit. I had a chance to try five different used ones on in my size here locally(two house jackets...and I believe the others were Roughwears). So after my first A2 repro(an LW) I ordered a russet RealDeal. Pulling it outa the box...I couldn't believe the difference between it and the LW. Fit was dead on...and that jerky hide was dropdead gorgeous. BTW epaulettes somehow on my size 40 measure 6 3/4" just like my original size 42 Aero...only they are narrower. Yep...poly/cotton thread...dif ply robust knit. But..I'll tell ya...comparing that RealDeal to the ELCs that I had a chance to try on...I was sure glad that I had invested my money elsewhere. Again...at that time...I tryed on a RMNZ in anticipation of ordering one....but the sleeve knits seemed like they were four inches long. Turned me off. So I ordered another Aero. Of what was offered back then...Aero was the best fit for my build and wasn't gonna fall apart anytime soon.
But boy oh boy....mention your new Aero on the first VLJ...and you were labeled an Aero shill. You'd catch a whole lengthy thread of bullshit. If you mentioned blousey tentlike fit...or knits falling apart on the old ELCs even as an eye-witness..the Aero Shill hollar got louder. So...it wasn't all onesided HamsterBear.....
Yep..we certainly have more to choose from now...and that's a good thing.
Also...many of us still have our preferences...subject to change at any time. Maybe that's even a better thing.
Van

 

[Hamsterbear]

So...it wasn't all onesided HamsterBear.....

Exactly.. I remember as I've been here through all the forum evolution.
That's why I mentioned a pendulum,the wind changes direction and it seems like every BRAND has had it's share of people attacking them, just like all the political crap this form seems to devote a lot of time to. (sometimes I think we forget what this is all about- leather jackets) Conversely, at one time or another a different BRAND gets rave reviews.
I admit that the best Aero is the Real Deal- I do have one, but never wear it, and I have/had many Eastmans over the years, some I like and some I didn't, and YES the knits suck (mostly), and I've also had Cooper, Avirex, Willis&Geiger, Sefton, Split-S, USA, Flight Apparell Industries, Sportys, LLBean, Golden Bear, Schott, and a few original WWII Navy jackets, most of which were bought then sold or traded-so you see I've yet to find the PERFECT jacket.
That's why I'm still here.......
Oh, I started as "Hamsterjeep", but changed during one of the forum transitions, so I have been around a while. Sometimes I don't know who's who here anymore due to name changes and other factors.
I'm down to a handful of jackets I wear, and a few more I keep just because I like a certain feature or I had patches done as a "theme" jacket, some squadron or such.That leaves about a dozen ready for eBay when the weather gets cold again ( selling jackets in the summer is BAD) I did see a ton of originals as JC took many photo's at my house for his jacket CD as he would show up with armloads of his latest "finds', and I did see a good number of his products before he went public. I consider John a very good friend, yet I don't own a single one of his jackets, nor do I own an original A-2, I just can't see spending two grand on an A-2 that should be in a display case- and saying that will start another fued! :lol:
-B.

 

[deeb7]

Check out this beaut from Eastman, sure to turn heads and be a success.....

http://www.shopcreator.com/mall/eastman ... 609786.stm

Perhaps it's something that could be tried at home ...

Wet it, dry it out on a dummy, buff it with a sheepskin polishing pad, on a power drill set to low-speed.

And swear that it took hours.

 

[T-Bolt]

Just in case anyone had not clicked on the more pictures bit here's the close-ups......

http://www.eastmanleather.com/A-250CAL.htm

That picture looks exactly like my Eastman Aero Leather, from a few years ago when they actually had the "Aeroleather" label.
-B

Brian,

I have three questions regarding that ELC "Aero" that you owned.

1) Was it a 18775-P contract?

2) On the label, did it say Eastman Lthr. Clo. Co. or did it say Aero Leather Clo. Co.??

3) How were the brick red knits on it. Were they a bit more substantial than common Eastman knits?/

I have an ELC 18775-P and it is a favorite wearer of mine. It is made of pretty thin horse and drapes well. It has quite a bit of grain in my opinion. Also, the knits are noticeably beefier than most of the other ELC A-2's I have seen.


Ted

 

[Hamsterbear]

That picture looks exactly like my Eastman Aero Leather, from a few years ago when they actually had the "Aeroleather" label.
-B


Brian,

I have three questions regarding that ELC "Aero" that you owned.

1) Was it a 18775-P contract?

2) On the label, did it say Eastman Lthr. Clo. Co. or did it say Aero Leather Clo. Co.??

3) How were the brick red knits on it. Were they a bit more substantial than common Eastman knits?/

I have an ELC 18775-P and it is a favorite wearer of mine. It is made of pretty thin horse and drapes well. It has quite a bit of grain in my opinion. Also, the knits are noticeably beefier than most of the other ELC A-2's I have seen.
Ted[/quote]

1) the lable states DWG.NO.30H1415
ORDER NO. 42-18775-P
2) it says AERO LEATHER CLO.CO.
BEACON,N.Y.
3) these were the original factory knits;

I replaced them because the cuffs were totally ballooned out, and the wasit knit lost it's stretch. I ordered replacement knits fron Aero Leather, and chose the rust because their berry knits were redder or brighter than I wanted. This looks pleasing to the eye, and is a good match for the color of the jacket. I also added a WWII type nametag, and a MASH iron-on shoulder decal.
This is one of my "KEEPER" jackets, one of the 3 I wear all the time.
-B

 

[T-Bolt]

Thanks for the reply, Brian. Your jacket must be a bit older than mine. My version has the same label as yours, but says "Eastman Lth. Clo. Co." instead of Aero. Also, mine must have a littler heavier knits, because they are a good quality and holding up nicely......no blowouts!


Ted

 

[Hamsterbear]

Ted,
I just looked, no tag in the pocket with a s/n.I don't know what year it was made, but obviously before they removed the Aero labels.
-B

 

[Anonymous]

All these details, all this debate, all this resentment against each other. Since when has one person's opinion about an A-2 been seen as the deciding factor in how you judge them and what calibre of human being they are ? This is all insane :cry:

And to those who say that they could spot a repro on a member of the USAAF - even if the photo was black and white and aged. Who cares ? You can bet your arse that another genuine WW2 aircrewman wouldn't notice the details. You can also bet that 99% of the old vets wouldn't know a good repro from a great one either. That's why I find it funny when some makers seem to be trying to get the thimbs up from the vets. To those guys at the time they were just aircrew leather jackets. Prized for sure but they couldn't tell you the type of thread or snap or the length of the knits.

I asked my grandfather about the kit and clothing he wore for 6 years as a soldier in WW2. He was incredibly vague on the details. It was stuff he was issued with, stuff he used intimately for many years but it was just stuff. It reminded him that he was not a civillian and that he was away from home and he put it all behind him when he got back after the war. He'd lost a lot of friends and didn't have the luxury of being home in time for tea and away from danger for a few hours and the whole of his service WW2 was a painful experience. BUT he could tell me how to field strip a No.4 and a Bren. His life bloody well depended on being able to know them inside out.

The point is that the people who were issued kit were not worried about the details in the way that some OCD sufferers are on this site. They had more important things to worry about. I bet you a gunner could still tell you how to field strip a .50 cal and a pilot could still recite start-up checks after 60 years but something you put on and did nothing to until you took it off and on which your life definately did not rely on, c'mon, get real. Who cares about press studs and zipper makers ?

Perspective is needed here : we all love leather (and nylon) jackets. Get along folks. This reminds me of when I was in the Army. If another regiment was on the training ground, we fought with them. If there wasn't one but there was another battalion of our own regt, we scrapped with them. If that wasn't an a option, we fought the other platoon. Failing that, we fought amongst ourselves.

J_H

 

[Andrew]

All these details, all this debate, all this resentment against each other. Since when has one person's opinion about an A-2 been seen as the deciding factor in how you judge them and what calibre of human being they are ? This is all insane :cry:

J_H

JH I find myself agreeing with everything you've said. The next time there's another alternative on offer it'll be the greatest- that's just development and the stuff that's gone before all helped create the latest great thing- it's why we now no longer fly about in bi-planes.

I've spoken to a number of Vet Aircrew myself, and I do ask about the gear they used, although in the scheme of the discussions it really is low on the significance of why i'm talking to them in the first place. In almost all cases the responses are a polite dismissal either due to the reasons you suggest or it really just doesn't rate with them 65 years on.

I've sensed the level of agro on the forum has risen over a while now as well, it's possibly a biproduct of losing a bad guy or two from the forum over the past year....

 

[Anonymous]

Jacket Head:

All these details, all this debate, all this resentment against each other. Since when has one person's opinion about an A-2 been seen as the deciding factor in how you judge them and what calibre of human being they are ? This is all insane

This is the sport pal- this is what we do- we look at old jackets and love the details. You are like someone watching a tennis game and saying "Why are you hitting that poor ball?"

Who cares ? You can bet your arse that another genuine WW2 aircrewman wouldn't notice the details. You can also bet that 99% of the old vets wouldn't know a good repro from a great one either.

The point is that the people who were issued kit were not worried about the details in the way that some OCD sufferers are on this site. They had more important things to worry about.

Who cares what WW2 crewmen thought then or think now about their A-2s? This is of passing interest at best and as you say they didn't give a rat's ass- WE DO! We on this forum today are the people who DO care about details- if not we'd all be happily buying Coopers anbd walkin' away! Why this hostility from YOU towards "the OCD sufferers" on this site? This is what we do!!

Who cares about press studs and zipper makers ?

A lot of the weirdos (including me) on this forum.

his reminds me of when I was in the Army. If another regiment was on the training ground, we fought with them. If there wasn't one but there was another battalion of our own regt, we scrapped with them. If that wasn't an a option, we fought the other platoon. Failing that, we fought amongst ourselves.

I was never in the army but I'd argue with Jesus or the devil himself about just about anything ! Arguing and discussing old jackets is what the forum is about. It can get very specific and sometimes a little nasty (some might say silly). What old vets thought or think has nothing to do with our strange hobby.

 

[Tim P]

to me it is very much about old vets. and about me of course.

 

[Anonymous]

rotenhahn ,
The point I'm making is that yes, we are all jacket nuts, so why is there so much in-fighting and going on amongst an ever increasing number of members over interpretations and opinions of jacket details. we should be grateful that there is a forum for us and learn to appreciate the other person's views - even if we disagree with them.

It seems to me that this is a mirror of people's political views that has been amply demonstrated in other non-jacket related threads. People can't just agree to differ but want to nuke the guy with an opposing opinion. A case of "There is no truth but my truth".

This is jackets we are talking about and to judge a person's worth on a difference of opinion over a collar shape or shoulder drape is madness.

This place isn't what it was a few incarnations ago. But before you all go tell me to go to hell, I'm staying coz this is the only place to go to .
Shame really ............
J_H