New ELC '50-Cal' A-2!

[MikeyB-17]

Just had a question. If GW jackets are "as close as one can get to an exact copy" why is it that most of the GW jackets you buy from John end up on ebay after you post photos on the forum and blather on the forum about how perfect they are? Odd.

I have a feeling this is not a reflection on John's jackets, more a symptom of the collector's mentality which a lot of us suffer from. You buy one jacket, you love it for a while, then you get the urge for something else, so the first one has to go to make room for another. I've been guilty of it myself-posting here with pics of my new jacket and how much I love it, then a while down the line, when the honeymoon's over, I start noticing things I'm not so keen on. Then I see something else I want more, so the first one's out the window. Just the way it goes-as is, unfortunately, the tendency to split into factions of supporters of different manufacturers. It happens on other forums too. You ain't gonna change it, although I grant you, it does get a bit wearing on the nerves.
I see we're starting to see a bit of Goodwear backlash-people seem to be getting fed up with people singing the praises of John's jackets-I think there's an element here of 'If everybody else likes it, I don't want it!'-another thing I confess to having been guilty of in the past. Plus old allegiances to certain manufacturers die hard-folk seem to think that everybody praising John's jackets is somehow a slur on their favourite maker. Again, that's just the way it is. Be nice to think we could all agree on everything, but that would make life pretty boring I suppose.

 

[John Lever]

It's a shame that we can't afford to keep all the jackets that we buy. By the very nature of being a collector there is always the urge to just get' one more', and ' this one's better '
If we were easily satisfied then this forum probably wouldn't exist. I think the sell one to buy one effect is a guilt thing.

 

[jacketimp]

aye laddies, we be all seeking the holy grail!

 

[havocpaul]

Just had a question. If GW jackets are "as close as one can get to an exact copy" why is it that most of the GW jackets you buy from John end up on ebay after you post photos on the forum and blather on the forum about how perfect they are? Odd.

I have a feeling this is not a reflection on John's jackets, more a symptom of the collector's mentality which a lot of us suffer from. You buy one jacket, you love it for a while, then you get the urge for something else, so the first one has to go to make room for another. I've been guilty of it myself-posting here with pics of my new jacket and how much I love it, then a while down the line, when the honeymoon's over, I start noticing things I'm not so keen on. Then I see something else I want more, so the first one's out the window. Just the way it goes-as is, unfortunately, the tendency to split into factions of supporters of different manufacturers. It happens on other forums too. You ain't gonna change it, altough I grant you, it does get a bit wearing on the nerves.
I see we're starting to see a bit of Goodwear backlash-people seem to be getting fed up with people singing the praises of John's jackets-I think there's an element here of 'If everybody else likes it, I don't want it!'-another thing I confess to having been guilty of in the past. Plus old allegiances to certain manufacturers die hard-folk seem to think that everybody praising John's jackets is somehow a slur on their favourite maker. Again, that's just the way it is. Be nice to think we could all agree on everything, but that would make life pretty boring I suppose.

I personally have never had a problem with Goodwear jackets, as I have said many times the 'test' #1 Doniger I have is one of the finest repros I have owned in nearly 30 years of collecting, what I do find annoying is flipant remarks that dismiss all other manufacturers out of hand in what to me appears to be an attempt to 'suck up' to John, who I am sure would much prefer constructive and fair criticism than blind 'worship'. For me it isn't a backlash against any manufacturer nor against "everybody else liking it" or indeed any old allegiance to ELC or anyone else. Not all Eastman's are perfect nor all GW's, it is a progressive process developing new jackets and listening to feedback from the customers helps in the research and development of both the product and the business. Differences of opinion are essential in a free world but making sarcastic and silly comments is not a good sign of balanced opinion or maturity.

 

[greyhound52]

I agree with the above comments. I think we all have our "favs". While I really like my GW Doniger and can't wait to get my GW A-1 (come on John :evil: ) I would not part with my BR RW A-2 which is if not the best pretty close to the best fitting A-2 I have. I have bought and sold GW prototypes to get other GW production models. I guess it is the collectors curse and a guilt thing that drives us to sell some of our jackets. I believe there is room here for all the different repro manufactors. We all have our opinions and nothing wrong with that. Hey if we all agreed what a boring place this would be right.

 

[Andrew]

Agreed agreed with all the above and beautifully put as well Gentlemen- nothing more to add except...

another thing coming into play personally ( and i'm sure you'll know what I mean) as I wait for my new GW to arrive hopefully monday or tuesday at the latest, is the thought of "just what can I sell to help cover the cost of the new purchase to stay expenditure neutral" (ok maybe slightly positive). In my case the logic is that I can't really need two seal Dubows so I guess one may have to go. This can apply to any make or type of jacket /thing. Lucky I don't feel the same about Wives as the one I have is a keeper.

I must say that whilst i've had and appreciated personal emails from Amanda, Gary and Paddy, i've absolutely enjoyed speaking with John on the phone on several occasions about absolutely anything and everything in ordering this new one. His enthusiasm is infectious and love of his new job is obvious.

 

[jacketimp]

It's a shame that we can't afford to keep all the jackets that we buy. By the very nature of being a collector there is always the urge to just get' one more', and ' this one's better '
If we were easily satisfied then this forum probably wouldn't exist. I think the sell one to buy one effect is a guilt thing.

guilt? blame it on the wominfolks...........mammy, sis and girlfriends.......or unfortunately, wiveys...

 

[better duck]

Been reading this post with all its replies with interest but also with some detachment. I'd like to thank Paul for pointing us to the ELC news item, for one thing. But the whole discussion about the pros & cons of GW, ELC, ALC, RMNZ, BR etc is a bit tiresome. And more than that: so bloody relative. We all like these jackets for at least one (to us) important reason: they remind us of history, adventure, WW2, airfighting at its mythical best. But if we were able to put any one of the top end repro jackets (and a mid-range one too, for that matter) on a WW2 aircrew, no one would look at these jackets twice: they wouldn't stand out, and the guys wearing them wouldn't notice the small differences we seem to devide over - or if they did, care not one bit about them. So for all practical purposes, our jackets are just fine for most of us - as they would have been 'back then'.
I for one am an ELC fan, and have been for 20 years. Now I have my first GW on order. Two months in the waiting room, another two to go. I'd say: good for me, for Gary and his gang, and Johns one man show (and what a show).
So Paul: please keep it up, as I will, if you see something interesting from any one of the repromakers, shout it to us!

 

[Anonymous]

Just had a question. If GW jackets are "as close as one can get to an exact copy" why is it that most of the GW jackets you buy from John end up on ebay after you post photos on the forum and blather on the forum about how perfect they are? Odd.

I've bought and sold many Goodwears- I've also bought and sold many originals in the past and many other repros as well. I've ended up with ONE original jacket and TWO Goodwears as my wearers- that's it! I've been collecting jackets since 1977-78 and I suffer from extreme OCD- I know my DETAILS. I can't even buy a repro from another maker because the niggling detail MISTAKES and bizarre fits drive me nuts! I can't wear an original because I'm afraid I'll fuck it up- so I buy Goodwears- some I like better than others. My United Sheeplined is an AMAZING copy but IMO it fit me funny- just as an original United Sheeplined would- the square shoulders and tubular sleeves (very characteristic of the original contract) don't suit me IMO. I wouldn't have to worry about that with any other repro because basically they look the same- close but no cigar. The difference between a RMNZ Roughwear and Dubow is a too-large pointy collar on the Dubow and too-rounded collar tips on the Roughwear- fitwise they look pretty much the same and not exactly right. I don't get attached to all my jackets- if I see something I like better I'm willing to let it go to get the next new thing! So I'll buy and sell my Goodwears but I wouldn't buy ANYTHING else because nothing even comes close IMO. I''d say to you especially Grant -" you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

 

[Anonymous]

If you want I'll post all the mistakes found on all the Eastmans, Aeros, Lost Worlds and RMNZs I've owned vis a vis originals. I'm not saying there aren't a few grey areas on Goodwears but these are rare compared to all the other makers and often due to circumstances beyond John's control. I'll stiick to my guns on this- no other repro maker comes close.

 

[Anonymous]

Better Duck:

But the whole discussion about the pros & cons of GW, ELC, ALC, RMNZ, BR etc is a bit tiresome. And more than that: so bloody relative

Actually- I have to respectfully disagree with you- it's not relative at all- the characteristics of original A-2s are what they are- not "relative". It may be "tiresome" but so is learning something new sometimes- it can be hard to let go.

We all like these jackets for at least one (to us) important reason: they remind us of history, adventure, WW2, airfighting at its mythical best

Again- I respectfully disagree- the reason I like A-2s NOW has nothing to do with all that IMO bullshit- I like them in the Japanese way- strictly as innate objects in themselves. When I started out in 1977/8 I loved all that stuff it's true...

But if we were able to put any one of the top end repro jackets (and a mid-range one too, for that matter) on a WW2 aircrew, no one would look at these jackets twice: they wouldn't stand out, and the guys wearing them wouldn't notice the small differences we seem to devide over - or if they did, care not one bit about them

Absolutely not true my friend- I would pick 'em out in 10 seconds. Every time I look at reenactor photos I think "Eastman, Eastman, US Authentic..." The "top end" and "mid-range" repro jackets would stick out like sore thumbs to one with an experienced eye- they simply don't fit or look the same. If you took 10 skinny guys and outfitted them in Eastmans, RMNZs and Aeros and posed them in a group shot in front of a B-17 and did them same with 10 skinny guys with Goodwears you'd see a BIG difference IMO because the focus of the GWs is so much better- detail and fitwise. The only thing that is true is that WW2 crews probably wouldn't give a shit.

So for all practical purposes, our jackets are just fine for most of us - as they would have been 'back then'.

That's great for most of you- it doesn't apply to me- I want a new WW2 A-2.

 

[Anonymous]

Havocpaul:

what I do find annoying is flipant remarks that dismiss all other manufacturers out of hand in what to me appears to be an attempt to 'suck up' to John, who I am sure would much prefer constructive and fair criticism than blind 'worship'.

My remarks are anything but flippant- they are the result of many many hours spent in front of the mirror thinking "why does this __________ (fill in the blank with any repro maker) look different from my original? As far as sucking up to John-well...it pays not to bite the hand that feeds ya :lol: :lol: :lol: . In real life however I have a feeling he's winced a few times when he's sent a jacket off to me and thought "I hope that freak likes this"!

 

[havocpaul]

If you want I'll post all the mistakes found on all the Eastmans, Aeros, Lost Worlds and RMNZs I've owned vis a vis originals. I'm not saying there aren't a few grey areas on Goodwears but these are rare compared to all the other makers and often due to circumstances beyond John's control. I'll stiick to my guns on this- no other repro maker comes close.

Not needed in this thread, your opinions have been noted, this wasn't about mistakes or who makes the best repro but it certainly got hijacked that way, a pity but typical of the current climate but I am sure normal service will be resumed eventually.

 

[Anonymous]

If you want I'll post all the mistakes found on all the Eastmans, Aeros, Lost Worlds and RMNZs I've owned vis a vis originals. I'm not saying there aren't a few grey areas on Goodwears but these are rare compared to all the other makers and often due to circumstances beyond John's control. I'll stiick to my guns on this- no other repro maker comes close.

Not needed in this thread, your opinions have been noted, this wasn't about mistakes or who makes the best repro but it certainly got hijacked that way, a pity but typical of the current climate but I am sure normal service will be resumed eventually.

OK- Let's look at the jacket you posted- it's nice in its own way- but look carefully. It's true that it's not an exact copy of any particular contract- that's kinda cool because there aren't specifics to worry about. My problem with this jacket would be the presumably very high price and the extremely annoying eyelike snap glaring out of that pocket emphasized by rubbing the finish off on it. Look at the weird laser-straight...well... everything- did robots make it? Finally- it looks like every new Eastman- just kind of sits there- nice but boring. On the plus side- beautiful thread and beautiful zipper and beautiful collar clip.

 

[havocpaul]

:roll: !

 

[jacketimp]

double or nothin'.........

good wear OR no wear.............yawn

 

[better duck]

But if we were able to put any one of the top end repro jackets (and a mid-range one too, for that matter) on a WW2 aircrew, no one would look at these jackets twice: they wouldn't stand out, and the guys wearing them wouldn't notice the small differences we seem to devide over - or if they did, care not one bit about them

Absolutely not true my friend- I would pick 'em out in 10 seconds.

My dear fellow: I wasn't talking about you! I am quite convinced that you can do what you say you can, and let me say: I appreciate you for it as a colourful and knowlegdeable member of our rather small niche on the internet. My statement simply was, that aircrew in the ETO in the 40-ies wouldn't either notice or care about the small differences we are talking about!

 

[Tim P]

But if we were able to put any one of the top end repro jackets (and a mid-range one too, for that matter) on a WW2 aircrew, no one would look at these jackets twice: they wouldn't stand out, and the guys wearing them wouldn't notice the small differences we seem to devide over - or if they did, care not one bit about them

Absolutely not true my friend- I would pick 'em out in 10 seconds.

My dear fellow: I wasn't talking about you! I am quite convinced that you can do what you say you can, and let me say: I appreciate you for it as a colourful and knowlegdeable member of our rather small niche on the internet. My statement simply was, that aircrew in the ETO in the 40-ies wouldn't either notice or care about the small differences we are talking about!

Dat Klopt.

This thread is about the ELC 50 cal though isnt it? however it may compare to other items in the inventory of others, it shows an ability to stay in the market.
Hopefully a 50 cal option will be made available in maker label A-2's and thta will keep ELC well and truly in the game.
credit to anyone with the acumen to go to the lengths of producing items to throw to the lions on here lol.
now about those A6's.....

 

[Anonymous]

But if we were able to put any one of the top end repro jackets (and a mid-range one too, for that matter) on a WW2 aircrew, no one would look at these jackets twice: they wouldn't stand out, and the guys wearing them wouldn't notice the small differences we seem to devide over - or if they did, care not one bit about them

Absolutely not true my friend- I would pick 'em out in 10 seconds.

My dear fellow: I wasn't talking about you! I am quite convinced that you can do what you say you can, and let me say: I appreciate you for it as a colourful and knowlegdeable member of our rather small niche on the internet. My statement simply was, that aircrew in the ETO in the 40-ies wouldn't either notice or care about the small differences we are talking about!

As I said:

The only thing that is true is that WW2 crews probably wouldn't give a sh*t.

I understand what you point was but I still don't think it lets the repro companies off the hook.

 

[jacketimp]

thank good for godwear.........ooops typo,

I mean................................thank god for goodwear

make it (jacket)god