Fivestar Monarch 23378

[Banzai]

Originally bought an off the rack stock size 46 RW. Length was listed as 24.4” and when I received that jacket decided 24.4” was too short for me. Sold it to a friend of mine. I reached out to him and got him to take pics of its back measurements. It had shrunk down to 24” even. So lost 1/2” at this point and it’s a year old. Looks like shrinkage stops at about 2 or 3 months. I can pull on the jackets leather and get most of that length back. And I suppose after a while of repeatedly doing that it would stay there. But I am comfortable at 25”.
So my recommendation to anyone buying a jacket to figure out what length you are happy with and go an inch longer. Being an inch longer than what you want is not going to make a big difference. A inch shorter than what you want is a huge difference.
And from what I just heard back from others on this thread I would recommend an inch longer on any manufacturer you order from.
Sounds like you ordered a jacket. What jacket did you order?

I have a Five Star “crusader”…their take on the Indy jacket. Was pondering a RW27752, maybe in “pull-up”. The stock dimensions on the 40 look pretty much right for me, but not if the body shrinks. I could lose up to an inch off the stock measurements in the sleeves. I anticipate sleeve “shrinking” with any leather jacket, but not body. I ordered the Crusader with a sleeve length anticipating losing about 0.5” or a bit more.

I remember the “proof” photos they sent. Amazingly spot on. I just think it’s funny that people here are tying themselves in knots about the tiny measurement details from custom vendors like Five Star to get the exact perfect fit…and then the whole thing shrinks. It’s a good argument for off-the-rack sizing. Just buy the closest, and be happy with it.

So maybe I’ll just buy a Buzz Rickson’s on my next trip to Tokyo. At least then I won’t be agonizing over whether I should have gotten it made with a half-inch less here or and inch more there, etc.

 

[Camel24hrs]

I have a Five Star “crusader”…their take on the Indy jacket. Was pondering a RW27752, maybe in “pull-up”. The stock dimensions on the 40 look pretty much right for me, but not if the body shrinks. I could lose up to an inch off the stock measurements in the sleeves. I anticipate sleeve “shrinking” with any leather jacket, but not body. I ordered the Crusader with a sleeve length anticipating losing about 0.5” or a bit more.

I remember the “proof” photos they sent. Amazingly spot on. I just think it’s funny that people here are tying themselves in knots about the tiny measurement details from custom vendors like Five Star to get the exact perfect fit…and then the whole thing shrinks. It’s a good argument for off-the-rack sizing. Just buy the closest, and be happy with it.

So maybe I’ll just buy a Buzz Rickson’s on my next trip to Tokyo. At least then I won’t be agonizing over whether I should have gotten it made with a half-inch less here or and inch more there, etc.

Across the shoulders and waist did not shrink. I guess because wearing the jackets keeps them stretched out. But from top to bottom there is no pressure to keep them from shrinking. I got QC pics and pics now that will show the shrinkage. When I first got the jackets at 26” after trying them on my thought was I think I went a little to long. Then after a month or so my thought was I like this length. It was only after I put a tape to them that I realized they had shrunk in length. So if I had known 25” is where I like it and ordered that I would not be happy.
Problem with buying a stock jacket is I got no idea how long ago that jacket was made. And from comments on this thread others have observed this from other repo manufacturers too.

1” make a huge difference in the fit length wise. Same on the sleeves. It’s better to be a tad long that a tad short.

 

[Banzai]

Across the shoulders and waist did not shrink. I guess because wearing the jackets keeps them stretched out. But from top to bottom there is no pressure to keep them from shrinking. I got QC pics and pics now that will show the shrinkage. When I first got the jackets at 26” after trying them on my thought was I think I went a little to long. Then after a month or so my thought was I like this length. It was only after I put a tape to them that I realized they had shrunk in length. So if I had known 25” is where I like it and ordered that I would not be happy.
Problem with buying a stock jacket is I got no idea how long ago that jacket was made. And from comments on this thread others have observed this from other repo manufacturers too.

1” make a huge difference in the fit length wise. Same on the sleeves. It’s better to be a tad long that a tad short.

Sure, you don’t know any of that info about picking a jacket off the rack. But you’ll never find yourself thinking about what if you had ordered it just a tiny bit different, and maybe even returning to the well to do so. It just is what it is, and you never think about the possibility that it could have been *just* right.

 

[B-Man2]

Across the shoulders and waist did not shrink. I guess because wearing the jackets keeps them stretched out. But from top to bottom there is no pressure to keep them from shrinking. I got QC pics and pics now that will show the shrinkage. When I first got the jackets at 26” after trying them on my thought was I think I went a little to long. Then after a month or so my thought was I like this length. It was only after I put a tape to them that I realized they had shrunk in length. So if I had known 25” is where I like it and ordered that I would not be happy.
Problem with buying a stock jacket is I got no idea how long ago that jacket was made. And from comments on this thread others have observed this from other repo manufacturers too.

1” make a huge difference in the fit length wise. Same on the sleeves. It’s better to be a tad long that a tad short.

Sure, you don’t know any of that info about picking a jacket off the rack. But you’ll never find yourself thinking about what if you had ordered it just a tiny bit different, and maybe even returning to the well to do so. It just is what it is, and you never think about the possibility that it could have been *just* right.

If I might jump in and share past experiences with you guys. Here’s what I’ve found after several years of trying to guess what size or what fit I liked the best. Years ago I struggled with the elusive “war time fit” where the jacket looked trim and fit like it was tailor made for me. I struggled with 1/2 inch and 1/4 inch measurements . “Did I need a 1/2 inch more here or a 1/4 inch less there” it made me nuts . Now years later … looser feels better …. Layering room gives me the opportunity to wear the jacket in different temperatures and weather. In the spring the jacket is a little loose , in the colder weather I can wear a C-2 sweater under it and wear it down to 32 F .
My entire jacket collection has undergone a transformation from trim fit to relaxed fit .
So the point I’m trying to make is don’t get hung up over exact sizing . Your sizing requirements will change over time .
Guaranteed ..

 

[Emchisti]

Do fivestar shearling jackets also shrink in a similar manner?

 

[flyincowboy]

Did not notice any shrinkage unless you wear them under heavy rain till the leather get soaked. In normal weather shearling has tendancy to expand a little bit while wearing.

 

[Jaws623]

It looks good.

Comment/question though: What makes it a "Monarch" after the extensive pattern modifications to fit you?

I like Five Star, and Shawn. I have two Five Stars myself (an A-2 and a "Crusader"). I'm not casting shade on them or your jacket...it does look nice. But for the most part there's not a lot to differentiate one Five Star model from another. Some have a collar stand and some don't...his Werber has the line of stitching over the waist knits and the double row at the pocket...and a couple of his models were patterned off an original that he got his hands on. Most were not, so I don't know where the pattern/measurements were derived from. But there honestly aren't a lot of differentiators. Same leathers, pockets, epaulets, and in examples where he hasn't examined and copied an original, same size chart.

However, once the pattern has been altered to that extent to fit, and specified down to thread color, at that point it's "just" a Five Star custom, and doesn't matter what "original maker" label is sewn in. I'd honestly be happy at that custom level to have a WW2-style label that says "Five Star" rather than "Monarch" or "Rough Wear" or whatever else.

I want to point out one last time that I'm not knocking it. It's a great fit and a great product, and Five Star customer service is stunning. This is just an academic question regarding their product.

I guess Good Wear also completely customizes the jacket to the wearer, so maybe I'm just missing something.

Not that a WW2 flyer got to choose a pattern ("excuse me sir, I'd prefer a Rough Wear over a Perry, thank you!"), but back then the pattern probably mattered more than anything on the fit. You just walked in and got a size 40, or whatever, and the fit of that 40 depended on the manufacturer. There was no customization. You can get closer to customization in today's military because you can get a 40R, 40L, or 40S, and even then, you're probably not getting a "perfect" fit. Just close enough, so pattern still kind of matters, even though the pattern now is purely baggy Avirex/Cockpit.

Took me a while to get back to this but it is a good question. Obviously it is subjective to everyone, but for me the details regarding the specific styling of the collar and pockets are what I was looking for in each contract. For those things, Monarch was what I desired most. No matter the contract (or really whoever I purchased from, FS, ELC, GW or anyone else) I would have input the same measurements just because I want it to be properly fitted to me. For some, if you want to get default sizing and have that feeling of having just been "issued" a jacket, I can see the appeal in that. That said, I'm going to beat the hell out of this jacket and for me to want to do that with anything I am going to wear then I want it to fit as best as possible. Given my somewhat unique sizing requirements, getting a size 48-50 for length but disregarding width would have given off that baggy mall jacket look that I personally despise. So to somewhat answer the original question, in my own head I see it less as a "Monarch" and more as my own unique Frankenstein of an A2 with inspiration from a couple of different contracts.

 

[Camel24hrs]

Took me a while to get back to this but it is a good question. Obviously it is subjective to everyone, but for me the details regarding the specific styling of the collar and pockets are what I was looking for in each contract. For those things, Monarch was what I desired most. No matter the contract (or really whoever I purchased from, FS, ELC, GW or anyone else) I would have input the same measurements just because I want it to be properly fitted to me. For some, if you want to get default sizing and have that feeling of having just been "issued" a jacket, I can see the appeal in that. That said, I'm going to beat the hell out of this jacket and for me to want to do that with anything I am going to wear then I want it to fit as best as possible. Given my somewhat unique sizing requirements, getting a size 48-50 for length but disregarding width would have given off that baggy mall jacket look that I personally despise. So to somewhat answer the original question, in my own head I see it less as a "Monarch" and more as my own unique Frankenstein of an A2 with inspiration from a couple of different contracts.

There are size variations in the original A2s. Same manufacturer same size and different measurements, particularly on length and sleeves. Nothing wrong with getting a jacket that fits you the way you want it too. I promise no one is going to pull out a tape measure and check your measurements against a database they have.
In fact 99% of the population will not even know the name A2.
Just get a jacket that you like and size it to fit you and enjoy!

 

[Abyss]

I'm by no means an expert in A2s, but every new repro jacket I have purchased has either shrunk or stretched anywhere from .25 to about 1.25 inches from when it was new after I've spent some time in it. I think in my case, a lot of this is dictated by the initial fit of the jacket - tight spots in the jacket stretch, sometimes a lot, and loose spots seem to shrink a bit. However, I can count on the arms shrinking about .5 to 1 inch after creasing and the back shrinking about that much as well. Based on this, I'm with B-Man2 and don't worry about .25 to .5 inches in measurements anymore because I've found that it sorts itself out for me after wearing and breaking in.

As an example, I recently purchased a new jacket that the back length shrank about .5 inches during shipping. I had photos from the maker demonstrating the back length when it was finished prior to shipping and when I measured when it arrived it was .5 inches shorter. It also continued to shrink another .5 inches with wearing.

 

[Camel24hrs]

I'm by no means an expert in A2s, but every new repro jacket I have purchased has either shrunk or stretched anywhere from .25 to about 1.25 inches from when it was new after I've spent some time in it. I think in my case, a lot of this is dictated by the initial fit of the jacket - tight spots in the jacket stretch, sometimes a lot, and loose spots seem to shrink a bit. However, I can count on the arms shrinking about .5 to 1 inch after creasing and the back shrinking about that much as well. Based on this, I'm with B-Man2 and don't worry about .25 to .5 inches in measurements anymore because I've found that it sorts itself out for me after wearing and breaking in.

As an example, I recently purchased a new jacket that the back length shrank about .5 inches during shipping. I had photos from the maker demonstrating the back length when it was finished prior to shipping and when I measured when it arrived it was .5 inches shorter. It also continued to shrink another .5 inches with wearing.

I don’t experience the stretching on the width of shoulders or body. Tends to fit me like a glove there.
But like you I always have shrinkage on length and sleeves. About a full inch on the length and 1/2 to 3/4 on sleeves. And most of that happens during shipping. Whatever the QC pics are thats not what they measure when the jacket arrives.
And it’s not an issue as knowing this I order my jackets with an extra inch on both so I get the lengths I want.
A2s are short waist jackets to start with. An inch to long is not so bad. An inch to short is really bad.

 

[Jaws623]

There are size variations in the original A2s. Same manufacturer same size and different measurements, particularly on length and sleeves. Nothing wrong with getting a jacket that fits you the way you want it too. I promise no one is going to pull out a tape measure and check your measurements against a database they have.
In fact 99% of the population will not even know the name A2.
Just get a jacket that you like and size it to fit you and enjoy!

Couldn’t agree more!

 

[Juanito]

Not sure if it is any contribution, but I had stock 5 Star Doniger and it never shrank from the dimensions Shawn took before sending it to me and the year or two that I owned it.

 

[Camel24hrs]

Not sure if it is any contribution, but I had stock 5 Star Doniger and it never shrank from the dimensions Shawn took before sending it to me and the year or two that I owned it.

If it was goat it will not shrink. All the HH five star jackets I have bought shrunk almost immediately. I have a five star bronco in goat that never shrunk. I have had 5 total HH jackets from five star. Sold 2 of them. But every one shrunk in length about an inch.

 

[Pilot]

Many jackets are sold for xx-hide but in reality are yy-hide…
Low cost countries are experts in this kind of cheating.
Pe. sheepskin ( from bred meat-sheeps ) is easy to manipulate and plentiful available after meat processing in many countries..
Goatskin of non toxic chemical tanning processes becomes very pricy ( checkout the world market prices.. for non toxic tanning goatskin ).
Wonder how someone can sell a 300 Euro goatskin jacket involving-approximately 2-3 m2 hide/skin/jacket…. Market prices for non-toxic goatskin is already approx 200 Euro….. plus the others involved for making a jacket..
Western world’s dreams and ignorance of facts….
Go on dont stop dreaming and wonder about all little deseases sneaking in little by little….

 

[Camel24hrs]

Recently seen the full size picture of Cleven wearing the A2 identified as a Bronco. Pic floating around on here was cropped. Picture was taken in May 1945 in front of one of the 350th huts.

I highly doubt it was his original A2 he was issued. First when he was shot down his flight gear would have been recycled. This was done with every flyer shot down. He was presumed dead at that point then a pow. Secondly when he earned his wings in 1941 it was prior to Broncos being manufactured.

So there is no telling what his original A2 was when he became a member of the 100th in the states and then went to England with.

 

[Jaws623]

Recently seen the full size picture of Cleven wearing the A2 identified as a Bronco. Pic floating around on here was cropped. Picture was taken in May 1945 in front of one of the 350th huts.

I highly doubt it was his original A2 he was issued. First when he was shot down his flight gear would have been recycled. This was done with every flyer shot down. He was presumed dead at that point then a pow. Secondly when he earned his wings in 1941 it was prior to Broncos being manufactured.

So there is no telling what his original A2 was when he became a member of the 100th in the states and then went to England with.

That’s interesting to note, I would be curious what his original would have been. Wonder if there’s any earlier reference photos from the 100th BG’s archive.

 

[Jennison]

Glad you mentioned this, for a different reason. As was SOP, a captured flyer was grounded—if he somehow managed to made it back to his station— for both security reasons and for his own safety. This is evidenced by the jacket Cleven’s wearing; it’s fitted to a guy who isn’t meant to venture into the wild blue. That jacket is just roomy enough for a wool shirt and tie, ala ground exec or squadron adjutant. The A-2 jacket was issued to aircrew baggy, with room enough for a wool shirt and tie, sweater (maybe 2), flight suit and whatever else he wished to wear underneath it. Even with all that, he’d be nuts to wear one at all at 25,000 feet if he didn’t have the “luxury” of operating in one of the few scantily heated compartments of a ship.
So what’s the purpose of my drivel? if you’re striving for authenticity and want to look like you don’t fly, have your A-2 fitted. If you’re interested in looking like a knight of the air, wear it as it was cut and go up a couple of sizes. Make sure the front has a “cow-catcher” at the waist and that the knit at the bottom of the back is hidden by the drape of the leather. Not the sharpest look, but only the men who didn’t risk their lives wearing one bothered to look at themselves in the mirror. Besides, the boys had their dress uniforms to look sharp in while sitting at the bar in a London pub.

 

[Camel24hrs]

Glad you mentioned this, for a different reason. As was SOP, a captured flyer was grounded—if he somehow managed to made it back to his station— for both security reasons and for his own safety. This is evidenced by the jacket Cleven’s wearing; it’s fitted to a guy who isn’t meant to venture into the wild blue. That jacket is just roomy enough for a wool shirt and tie, ala ground exec or squadron adjutant. The A-2 jacket was issued to aircrew baggy, with room enough for a wool shirt and tie, sweater (maybe 2), flight suit and whatever else he wished to wear underneath it. Even with all that, he’d be nuts to wear one at all at 25,000 feet if he didn’t have the “luxury” of operating in one of the few scantily heated compartments of a ship.
So what’s the purpose of my drivel? if you’re striving for authenticity and want to look like you don’t fly, have your A-2 fitted. If you’re interested in looking like a knight of the air, wear it as it was cut and go up a couple of sizes. Make sure the front has a “cow-catcher” at the waist and that the knit at the bottom of the back is hidden by the drape of the leather. Not the sharpest look, but only the men who didn’t risk their lives wearing one bothered to look at themselves in the mirror. Besides, the boys had their dress uniforms to look sharp in while sitting at the bar in a London pub.

Seen enough pics of crews to say that it was either way with air crewmen. Some wore them over sized some wore them nice and trim. I think it was more to the luck of what was handed to them by the QM. There is a photo of a gunner from the memphis bell who could barely zip up his jacket. And plenty of others where pilots at briefings had trim fitting A2s. Sure most changed into B3s when collecting gear for the mission. On B17s there was a little heat in the cockpit that came off number 3 engine, but still would be very cold at altitude. And if you took any kind of hits in the plane there would have been a rush of cold air blowing through the cockpit. You are correct that almost everyone wore something else when flying missions. Fighter pilots were better off as for as heat goes. But Chuck Yeagers comment about the A2 was….to damn cold.

Saw an interview of an old vet with his A2. Reporter stated he bet that it was a warm jacket. The old vet said, no not at all but they made great leg warmers. The reporter puzzled asked, leg warmers? The old vet said, yeah women just loved them, it warmed their legs right up for us!

 

[Skyranger]

A-2s too small for some and too large for others, even in other armies there were sometimes size errors...
OK, I'm leaving....

 

[Jennison]

I think you meant the #2 engine.