B-Man2
Well-Known Member
My personal choice would be to have it just the way yours is . It’s much more authentic and looks the way the originals did when they were issued , complete with natural scars . Yours looks great by the way .
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Fivestar Monarch 23378
- Thread starter Jaws623
- Start date
Camel24hrs
Active Member
As you can see when comparing jacket sizing from same contract same size there is naturally variation in measurements. These are RW 23380s. So slightly changing up the measurements to fit one doesn’t make it less of a repo. Ever look at the pics of Keslo or Goodwear jackets? They use the same color cognac threads on their Repos as well. No one is going to say theirs are not repos.
It looks good.
Comment/question though: What makes it a "Monarch" after the extensive pattern modifications to fit you?
I like Five Star, and Shawn. I have two Five Stars myself (an A-2 and a "Crusader"). I'm not casting shade on them or your jacket...it does look nice. But for the most part there's not a lot to differentiate one Five Star model from another. Some have a collar stand and some don't...his Werber has the line of stitching over the waist knits and the double row at the pocket...and a couple of his models were patterned off an original that he got his hands on. Most were not, so I don't know where the pattern/measurements were derived from. But there honestly aren't a lot of differentiators. Same leathers, pockets, epaulets, and in examples where he hasn't examined and copied an original, same size chart.
However, once the pattern has been altered to that extent to fit, and specified down to thread color, at that point it's "just" a Five Star custom, and doesn't matter what "original maker" label is sewn in. I'd honestly be happy at that custom level to have a WW2-style label that says "Five Star" rather than "Monarch" or "Rough Wear" or whatever else.
I want to point out one last time that I'm not knocking it. It's a great fit and a great product, and Five Star customer service is stunning. This is just an academic question regarding their product.
I guess Good Wear also completely customizes the jacket to the wearer, so maybe I'm just missing something.
Not that a WW2 flyer got to choose a pattern ("excuse me sir, I'd prefer a Rough Wear over a Perry, thank you!"), but back then the pattern probably mattered more than anything on the fit. You just walked in and got a size 40, or whatever, and the fit of that 40 depended on the manufacturer. There was no customization. You can get closer to customization in today's military because you can get a 40R, 40L, or 40S, and even then, you're probably not getting a "perfect" fit. Just close enough, so pattern still kind of matters, even though the pattern now is purely baggy Avirex/Cockpit.
As far as jackets Shawn has looked at I enclosed a pic of the list. However since this list I know he has a Weber first contract in his hands. Which is impressive in that there were only 350 made according to Eastman. And I know he examined a Monarch as well. Now he does take liberty to for example use RW 27752 and produce a RW 28830 without having a 23380. However those contracts were practically identical except for the tags.
Camel24hrs
Active Member
I do know his RW jackets generally run an inch shorter than Keslo RW jackets run. But he only had 1 RW jacket to inspect. My RWs I get from 5 star I add an inch or more to the length. Had a RW 23380 size 48 I sold as I lost 32 lbs. bought a RW 27752 size 46 in mid brown. Recently I bought that Monarch in reddish brown and it surprisingly was full grain. So I have ordered a RW 23380 in size 46 reddish brown to replace the size 48 I sold. I requested the same full grain I got in the Monarch.
One thing I will say about 5 star jackets. The leather will shrink in length. About an inch or so. I think they take their leather and use it immediately without giving it time to shrink from being dried tautly. It doesn’t shrink in the width dementions. I think because of wearing it zipped keeps it stretched out that way. But sleeves and back will. I order my jackets at 26” so when they shrink down to 25” I am okay. You can physically grab the leather and stretch on it I suppose to get most of that back.
May explain the discrepancy of the original jackets. They get a load of leather delivered, the first jackets made out of that lot will end up shrinking more than the later jackets out of that lot because by the time they get to the last hides of that batch they have done shrunk down by the time they are cut. Just a thought.
Camel24hrs
Active Member
This is a good wear size 46 RW. Not that much difference in a five star 46 RW measurements.
Smithy
Well-Known Member
Will all due respect I'd rather have the Good Wear.
Camel24hrs
Active Member
Who wouldn’t? Good wear, Eastman and Keslo are beautiful jackets. Real works of art. Their attention to detail is unmatched by anyone else. There’s just one thing that strikes me odd about them. Why don’t they use the same leather in their jackets that the original A2s used? They use high end Italian and Japanese fully vegetable tanned leather in their jackets. Well we were at war with Italy and Japan, no A2s used this leather. Plus in Eastmans own book he provides the documentation that shows the military specification were for full grain, fully chrome tanned leather and the inspector report on a batch that confirms fully chrome tanned leather was used. Same on cowhide and goatskin.
There is a huge difference in the appearance and qualities of chrome and vegetable tanned leather. At least Good Wear does offer an option for chrome tanned leather, just one color, and again high end Italian leather.
It’s the lower end repo makers that are producing chrome tanned leather right now. If five star continues to produce that in full grain then as far as the leather goes they are closer to the original A2s than anyone else is in regards to the leather. My big knock on five star had been them using top grain as opposed to full grain which original A2s were.
Now please don’t take me wrong here, I love the looks of the high end jackets. They are just beautiful. Just if you are making a repo then go all the way and use the same leather that was in the originals.
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I started a thread asking about this sort of thing: the differences and the “why” of maker choices/selection. I’m very interested.
An inch is a lot. I know sleeves tend to shrink a bit, but the body shrinking by an entire inch when you’re pitching custom measurements to people is really unacceptable.
Camel24hrs
Active Member
I don’t know if the shrinkage is common among other A2 manufacturers or if it’s just a 5 star thing.
I had ordered a size 48 RW 23380 in reddish brown and got the length at 26.5”. I loved the jacket but at times it seemed a tad long. I had a knee replacement and it was so painful I could hardly eat for two months. Dropped from 214 lbs down to 183 lbs.
I knew I could now fit into a RW size 46 and got this one in mid brown and put the length at 26” even. Their stock 46 RW length is normally 24.4”.
That 46 is a slim fit on me and the 48 at that point was a relaxed fit.
Sold the size 48 RW and ordered a size 44 monarch in reddish brown and increased the length to 26”. Had sleeves at 26” on all the jackets.
One day for some reason I just decided to measure them and was shocked to find both jacket lengths and sleeves had shrunken by 1” and were now at 25”. Turns out that 25” is about a perfect fit for me. Any shorter and it would be to short. And any longer than 26” would be getting too long for a waist jacket that an A2 is supposed to be. So I am very fortunate.
I complained to Shawn and was given a huge discount on another jacket. So I got that size 46” RW 23380 in reddish brown coming in lengths sized at 26”. Hoping for the same full grain leather I got in the Monarch.
His QC pics of it are lengths of 26” just like they were for the other jackets. I’ll check weekly to see how the shrinkage goes. All other measurements did not change from the QC pics sent to me after manufacturing.
I don’t know if there was shrinkage on that 48 RW as I no longer have that jacket.
As far as complaints about five star other than this I have none. If that jacket shrinks down from 26” to 25” I’ll be fine. I’ll just tell anyone who buys their jackets to ensure they add and extra inch to lengths to account for shrinkage of the leather.
All the jackets are well sewn. The leather is beautiful for a 350 dollar jacket. I get compliments on them everywhere I go.
I just wonder if other manufacturers have shrinkage on their lengths.
Silver Surfer
Well-Known Member
im convinced that the curing and tanning of hh is done in solutions that contain water, and sometimes the water is not fully evaporated when a jacket is made. thus, as the water evaporates, the the hides begin to shrink on the made jacket. this seems [to me] to be an issue with hh, and moo, but not goat, interestingly. goatskin has denser fibers? dries faster? also, this shrinkage issue is not isolated to 5*, as ive encountered it with the makers as well.
Hopefully my Five Star A-2 won’t shrink. I do expect sleeves to shrink some, particularly on the thicker, crunchier leathers.
But when you are advertising exact custom measurements…that kind of shrinkage just seems to defeat the point. Or, if this is a common Five Star thing, he should put a cautionary statement.
But, they send those “proof pictures” before shipping that are just amazingly spot-on…it’s actually pretty remarkable how exact they get to their stated measurements…truly impressive.
This is why off-the-rack is psychologically easier. You don’t sit around and start thinking about another half-inch here, or inch there, and it will be perfect. You just decide to be happy with the closest fit you get in a model you like.
But when you are advertising exact custom measurements…that kind of shrinkage just seems to defeat the point. Or, if this is a common Five Star thing, he should put a cautionary statement.
But, they send those “proof pictures” before shipping that are just amazingly spot-on…it’s actually pretty remarkable how exact they get to their stated measurements…truly impressive.
This is why off-the-rack is psychologically easier. You don’t sit around and start thinking about another half-inch here, or inch there, and it will be perfect. You just decide to be happy with the closest fit you get in a model you like.
B-Man2
Well-Known Member
I think you’ll find that most jackets will lose an inch or so for a variety of reasons .
Tanning processes , creasing .. particularly in the sleeves and aging . I don’t think that you can put the blame on the manufacturer regardless of who makes the jacket . I have original WWII size 46s that fit like 44s and size 48s that fit like 46s. When I measure them out they’ve shrunk over the years .
Tanning processes , creasing .. particularly in the sleeves and aging . I don’t think that you can put the blame on the manufacturer regardless of who makes the jacket . I have original WWII size 46s that fit like 44s and size 48s that fit like 46s. When I measure them out they’ve shrunk over the years .
B-Man2
Well-Known Member
Like us, as we age we lose cm in height, even if some gain cm in width.
Exactly !!
flyincowboy
Well-Known Member
Do not forget that the skins are stretched at the time of tanning and it is normal for the leather to retract.
Camel24hrs
Active Member
Thanks for your input. It’s good to know this is common across manufacturers.
Camel24hrs
Active Member
Originally bought an off the rack stock size 46 RW. Length was listed as 24.4” and when I received that jacket decided 24.4” was too short for me. Sold it to a friend of mine. I reached out to him and got him to take pics of its back measurements. It had shrunk down to 24” even. So lost 1/2” at this point and it’s a year old. Looks like shrinkage stops at about 2 or 3 months. I can pull on the jackets leather and get most of that length back. And I suppose after a while of repeatedly doing that it would stay there. But I am comfortable at 25”.
So my recommendation to anyone buying a jacket to figure out what length you are happy with and go an inch longer. Being an inch longer than what you want is not going to make a big difference. A inch shorter than what you want is a huge difference.
And from what I just heard back from others on this thread I would recommend an inch longer on any manufacturer you order from.
Sounds like you ordered a jacket. What jacket did you order?
Silver Surfer
Well-Known Member
peeps shrink???? shit, I thought my jeans were getting longer.
Camel24hrs
Active Member
My enlisted papers show my height to be 5’11” even. Now at 65 I am just a hair under 5’ 10”. We loose cartilage as we age. In the spine and knees. I had a total knee replacement in right knee in January. Now my right leg is a little longer than my left leg. Have to wear a shim in my left shoe or boot.
