Eastman / Aero price gouging on overseas sales

[ButteMT61]

I'm going to stick to the US market, or used. The act of doing this, and some folks justifying it make me think my money is best spent elsewhere (here).

 

[Vcruiser]

British Law says that overseas (outside the EU) buyers do not pay VAT.

And for the sake of clarity: Eastman and Aero are not charging VAT on overseas sales. They're just keeping a bonus 20% markup and not disclosing it.

That's what I can't understand.
Why are some having such a hard time understanding this..or admitting it?
As if all others should pay the same price as those who must pay...VAT...even though that cost never goes in the VAT vat concerning overseas customers! It seems it is just pure profit...but yet somehow this is fair?

 

[ButteMT61]

Still no comment on FL - obviously more sanguine than I thought.

I haven't seen a post there on this?
There's possibly another issue brewing too, but I'm holding off until I get a reply from someone involved...

 

[m444uk]

There's possibly another issue brewing too, but I'm holding off until I get a reply from someone involved...

Another issue ? I must of strayed into an accountants taxation forum by mistake :?

 

[ButteMT61]

There's possibly another issue brewing too, but I'm holding off until I get a reply from someone involved...

Another issue ? I must of strayed into an accountants taxation forum by mistake :?

Hoping not, but quite possibly, yes. Likely of less importance here though.

 

[derleicaman]

Hey, I think this topic has shaken folks awake around here. Just a few days ago, folks were complaining this forum was dead due to the summer doldrums.

Personally I don't care how much profit the "players" make in selling their wares. I hope they make plenty to keep then in good business health for years and years. Keep folks employed in what was once a lost art and all that. That's the beauty of the free market. The ultimate price will depend on what the market will bear. Again, I'm not suggesting anything, but the fact that JC has over a year wait for his jackets tells me that even at the new higher price, the market obviously agrees that this is a reasonable price to ask. Similarly, there are waiting times for ELC and Aero. This may be due to other factors such as these firms have a bigger workforce than John. Again, this reinforces that the market sees the prices being asked as reasonable. It's really none of our business what a jacket cost in materials alone or what someone's overhead or profit margin is.

Where I do have aproblem is with the VAT issue. Legally, we are exempt as we do not live in the EU. We have our own taxes, tariffs and import duties to deal with. We need to stick with the facts here and not with opinion or feelings on the subject. I still find it hard to believe there is no way to claim a VAT refund from HM Tax Authority and just leave ELC and Aero out of it.

 

[Rutger]

British Law says that overseas (outside the EU) buyers do not pay VAT.

And for the sake of clarity: Eastman and Aero are not charging VAT on overseas sales. They're just keeping a bonus 20% markup and not disclosing it.

That's what I can't understand.
Why are some having such a hard time understanding this..or admitting it?
As if all others should pay the same price as those who must pay...VAT...even though that cost never goes in the VAT vat concerning overseas customers! It seems it is just pure profit...but yet somehow this is fair?

Oh, I do think almost everyone has understood (and admitted) by now.

Just wonder if the UK jacket makers are going to change their policy (unlikely).

Shouldn't UK customers be getting a bill with separate line stating amount of VAT, especially if they so requested?
If so, ship it to the US with the bill, through customs, to end user who should be able to reclaim VAT, right?

 

[derleicaman]

British Law says that overseas (outside the EU) buyers do not pay VAT.

Shouldn't UK customers be getting a bill with separate line stating amount of VAT, especially if they so requested?
If so, ship it to the US with the bill, through customs, to end user who should be able to reclaim VAT, right?

Hey Rutger, I would think the VAT charge works the same in all EU countries. The amount is never disclosed or shown as a seperate line item. That is the insidious nature of these taxes. Everyone knows its there hiding under the surface, but by not itemizing it, most folks forget about it. This also give the gov't. the ability to raise it anytime they want, again with most folks not being aware of this or realizing what the real cost is of these taxes. I think I read in one of these postings that the VAT went up 3% or so to the current 20%?

Hey, maybe I should get the pitchfork and torch franchise ready for when the folks finally realize how much their wonderful governments and their programs really take out your pocket!

 

[ButteMT61]

Or, just don't buy from them. That hurts more. Likely the small numbers here won't matter, but I can only control my wallet (in spite of my wife's opinion).
Vote with your Dollars/Euros/Pounds.

 

[m444uk]

Hey Rutger, I would think the VAT charge works the same in all EU countries. The amount is never disclosed or shown as a seperate line item. That is the insidious nature of these taxes. Everyone knows its there hiding under the surface, but by not itemizing it, most folks forget about it. This also give the gov't. the ability to raise it anytime they want, again with most folks not being aware of this or realizing what the real cost is of these taxes.

You think wrong ! See Otter's post.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12850&start=80

Vat is normally shown separately on higher value purchases.
The vendors VAT no. is also legally required to be shown on the receipt.

 

[John Lever]

I think some of these quoted shipping prices are rather low. I can't see how it's possible to send any thing to the US weighing 3 1/2kg [7 lbs]with insurance and tracking to the USA for £40. It's more like £90 to £100. Sure companies get discounts, but the numbers being posted are probably quite small as most sales are going to far east where economic growth is higher.

 

[derleicaman]

You think wrong. See Otter's post.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12850&start=80

Vat is normally shown separately on higher value purchases.
The vendors VAT no. is also legally required to be shown on the receipt.[/quote]

Sorry for my ignorance. My main experience is with high end cameras in Germany, and I can't recall the VAT as a seperate line item or itemized, but the last time I was over there was in 2006, so things may have changed. Haven't been to Great Britain for over 30 years, although I would love to go over anytime. My bad.

 

[Dr H]

Still no comment on FL - obviously more sanguine than I thought.

I haven't seen a post there on this?
There's possibly another issue brewing too, but I'm holding off until I get a reply from someone involved...

No, I've seen no post on FL either. I thought that somebody on the other side of the pond would have drawn it their countryfolk's attention.

 

[Rutger]

Hey Rutger, I would think the VAT charge works the same in all EU countries. The amount is never disclosed or shown as a seperate line item. That is the insidious nature of these taxes. Everyone knows its there hiding under the surface, but by not itemizing it, most folks forget about it. This also give the gov't. the ability to raise it anytime they want, again with most folks not being aware of this or realizing what the real cost is of these taxes. I think I read in one of these postings that the VAT went up 3% or so to the current 20%?

Hey, maybe I should get the pitchfork and torch franchise ready for when the folks finally realize how much their wonderful governments and their programs really take out your pocket!

Too easy a challenge .
My wife keeps all bills, she just dug up shopping bills from 6 different shops, they all have VAT indicated (% and amount) as standard.
I'd say that ELC/Aero should be able to produce such a bill if requested.

VAT has always been a big issue over here whenever they raise it.
Unfo, in the rare event that it is lowered, which was done for some business types a couple of years ago , the customer's price remained the same, so yes all those businesses made a very healthy extra profit at the expense of the customer without adding any value to the services supplied. That must have been millions.

 

[ButteMT61]

Still no comment on FL - obviously more sanguine than I thought.

I haven't seen a post there on this?
There's possibly another issue brewing too, but I'm holding off until I get a reply from someone involved...

No, I've seen no post on FL either. I thought that somebody on the other side of the pond would have drawn it their countryfolk's attention.

I didn't feel qualified to do it, and since many here have a good grasp of it and post there as well, I thought it would get done. I reckon it will indeed raise some stink if posted, just not sure I'm the one to do it. I've got one of my own ready to drop.

 

[John Lever]

Why not just buy from HPA ?

 

[m444uk]

Sorry for my ignorance. My main experience is with high end cameras in Germany, and I can't recall the VAT as a seperate line item or itemized, but the last time I was over there was in 2006, so things may have changed. Haven't been to Great Britain for over 30 years, although I would love to go over anytime. My bad.

What we haven't seen yet is someone Stateside produce an ELC bill. It shouldn't show any itemised VAT.

 

[ButteMT61]

I think some of these quoted shipping prices are rather low. I can't see how it's possible to send any thing to the US weighing 3 1/2kg [7 lbs]with insurance and tracking to the USA for £40. It's more like £90 to £100. Sure companies get discounts, but the numbers being posted are probably quite small as most sales are going to far east where economic growth is higher.

Last jacket from Aero this spring to CA was I believe was 30£ shipping and the VAT was a line item on the invoice. 0£.
The price I paid was the price listed on the site. So, I'd only assume a UK buyer would have paid more for the VAT.

 

[Dr H]

I've got one of my own ready to drop.

You little tinker!

 

[SuinBruin]

Why not just buy from HPA ?

One other point... HPA is also benefiting from ELC's practice of not discounting VAT. A jacket buyer in the US comparison shopping between ELC and HPA will notice that the list prices are just about the same and would in many cases prefer to deal with HPA as it's in the same country. He won't know that the ELC prices include a 20% tax component that he shouldn't have to pay.

Apples to apples, the ELC prices should be about 17% cheaper for a US buyer, which would make buying from ELC more attractive than buying from HPA. HPA would have to reduce its prices to remain competitive, which it obviously wouldn't want to do.

I would hate to be accused of Yank bashing, but I wonder if ELC's VAT policy isn't tied in somehow to their relationship with HPA...?

I think some of these quoted shipping prices are rather low. I can't see how it's possible to send any thing to the US weighing 3 1/2kg [7 lbs]with insurance and tracking to the USA for £40. It's more like £90 to £100. Sure companies get discounts, but the numbers being posted are probably quite small as most sales are going to far east where economic growth is higher.

I seriously doubt ELC is paying 100 quid in shipping costs for one jacket. I bought an oversized poster from the UK earlier this year and it arrived in a huge cardboard tube and it was only about 100 pounds to ship. Simple solution to this issue, though: charge actual shipping costs, and don't include the 20% faux VAT markup.

As for the hat place, I'm not a member and I've been expecting someone else to bring this up over there... but if no one else does, I'll sign up and do it. People deserve to know so they can make an informed buying decision.