Eastman / Aero price gouging on overseas sales

[Persimmon]

To me this thread is Redtails take 2 minus Jeff. All negative, slandering people of tax evasion who are not here to reply.
Have any of you considered how powerful customs and excise are? More powerful than the police.
Anyone thinking they can charge VAT and then not declare it would be stupid and end up in prison.
I

John
This is not about tax evasion, vast bonded warehouses, Brit Bashing etc etc etc

Its about clarity of position

I am sorry but it does seem you are trying to create much more to this than there is.

As for a Red Tails 2 ...
Well I suppose that was about clarity of position where Eastman were trying through the power of their web site to possiblly misrepresent what they had supplied.

So maybe you are correct !!

 

[unclegrumpy]

Recently I bought some shoes from Amazon US I paid the same price as US customers PLUS UK VAT.

Incorrect. You paid the same price that a US customer in a State that does not have any sales tax would pay. Almost every State has sales taxes that range between 5% and 10%.

I think the issue is the VAT is essentially a national sales tax that non UK residents should be exempt from paying....just like you were exempt from any US State's sales tax. If the issue is ELC England can't handle the taxing authorities bookwork, which I have no doubt is complicated and daunting, then why not just direct all US sales exclusively through their US distributor? That price would be less the VAT, but would have to include the US Customs...so in the end most items might be close to the same as the UK listed price, but the final cost would be less to the US buyer because VAT and Customs would have a chance to fight to balance each other out.

That said, besides the Norwegians and others who are painfully paying their Nation's VAT on top of the UK VAT, it looks like HPA are ones really getting knocked about in all of this.

In the end, I don't think that this has anything to do with Brit bashing, but rather a call...no a painful cry for more transparency in all our transactions. Hidden taxation is becoming a worldwide problem, and we all need to be careful about not willingly excepting or supporting it. If we don't, the problem will only get worse.....much much worse. :cry:

 

[Jeff M]

I can understand how ELC came to it's current way of doing business with non UK sites.
Started out "local", ended up with an international clientele, entered into a business agreement with HPA.....would not add that 20% VAT to HPA's gear / would NOT deduct 20% from direct sales outside the UK so as to allow HPA to make a profit/ funnel US buyers to HPA.
Understood.
And if ELC had simply explained that up front on their web site or when I emailed them, fine. At least then I have the information and can decide whether I wish buy an ELC product or not.
They didn't do that...rather sending me an explanation that sounds like it was written by a law school drop out.

Folks here have argued that it must cost more for ELC to handle the paperwork, that they aren't making an extra 20% on non UK sales, that raising this issue is "Brit bashing", attempted to distract by taking shots at GW.
The arguments and "With all respect to John" comments are specious at best.

As has been noted, this is about clarity.
I have purchased a LOT of things from the UK over the decades, and can not recall not getting the VAT refund except when buying from ELC and Aero.

The only reason i contacted ELC and asked my question was because of a discussion with Adam, (a Brit) on another thread;

[
The GBP prices generally include VAT. The ones I see on the Eastman and Aero site certainly do. The exception would be a smaller business that is not VAT registered and so no VAT registration number would be shown on website or receipt.

Like Adam, I certainly expected the ELC advertised prices to include VAT.
Or...for ELC to charge VAT on top of those prices on UK sales. This is not the case.

At least now the pricing policy of ELC (and Aero) is clarified...agree with it or not.

(And, BTW, purchasing through HPA costs essentially the same as purchasing from ELC direct.
A1 from HPA....$1105 including shipping. A1 from ELC direct..WITH shipping....$1045 )

 

[John Lever]

Alan,
Eastman and Aero can charge whatever they like for their jackets. The choice is with the customer,as all the prices are clearly stated on their websites. There are no extras at the cashout as when buying airlines tickets.
The beef seems to be that some people are not dissatisfied at paying the same as domestic customers, but that they want to pay LESS than them. There are other options, use HPA or buy from US Authentic or Real McCoys. I understand that HPA prices are considerably higher than Eastman's and they even charge for using a credit card.
All jackets are very expensive there is no way to avoid it. You can afford them or you can't .
Re the Amazon order, I paid £14 import duty

 

[Jeff M]

Alan,
Eastman and Aero can charge whatever they like for their jackets. The choice is with the customer,as all the prices are clearly stated on their websites. There are no extras at the cashout as when buying airlines tickets.
The beef seems to be that some people are not dissatisfied at paying the same as domestic customers, but that they want to pay LESS than them. There are other options, use HPA or buy from US Authentic or Real McCoys. I understand that HPA prices are considerably higher than Eastman's and they even charge for using a credit card.
All jackets are very expensive there is no way to avoid it. You can afford them or you can't .
Re the Amazon order, I paid £14 import duty

John. MY biggest beef is that i was given a misleading answer when I asked ELC directly what their policy was.
As others have asked already...why the attempt to mislead?
ELC realizes full well what they are doing, and how this may go down with their customers.
My recommendation to them is...be totally open and up front about how they are pricing their goods to UK and non-UK customers with a disclaimer on their web site..
You may not like it John, but there are non Uk folks out there who don't want to pay a portion of your share of the VAT that is owed on your ELC purchases.
And no, the prices at ELC and Aero are actually NOT "clearly stated" on their web sites.
I have purchased many items from ELC and Aero over the year years...and I did not realize I was in effect not receiving a VAT discount.
From Adams earlier comments and those of others on this thread, THEY were not aware either.
Well, now we all are, and we can make more of an informed choice when it comes to purchasing these items.

 

[ButteMT61]

...The beef seems to be that some people are not dissatisfied at paying the same as domestic customers, but that they want to pay LESS than them. There are other options, use HPA or buy from US Authentic or Real McCoys. I understand that HPA prices are considerably higher than Eastman's and they even charge for using a credit card.
All jackets are very expensive there is no way to avoid it. You can afford them or you can't .
Re the Amazon order, I paid £14 import duty

WRONG! We're not paying less for the JACKET! We're paying more as it includes a tax that's not OURS to pay. SImple. Very simple.
If I drive to Oregon to buy a car, I don't pay sales tax. That will save me $2000 on a $20,000 car that I would buy in CA. I'm not paying less for the car in Oregon - I'm not paying taxes! The car still costs me $20,000. Very simple math.

 

[SuinBruin]

To me this thread is Redtails take 2 minus Jeff. All negative, slandering people of tax evasion who are not here to reply.
Have any of you considered how powerful customs and excise are? More powerful than the police.
Anyone thinking they can charge VAT and then not declare it would be stupid and end up in prison.

VAT is a tax charged on goods used in the EU, so if goods are exported outside the EU, VAT isn't charged. You can zero-rate the sale, provided you get and keep evidence of the export, and comply with all other laws. You must also make sure the goods are exported, and you must get the evidence, within three months from the time of sale.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/int ... oods.htm#6

Eastman does not have to charge VAT on overseas sales. So it isn't charging VAT. It's just collecting and keeping the 20% that would go to the government on domestic sales as bonus profit.

One price for the EU, with VAT added.

A different (higher) price for the rest of the world, with no VAT added.

No problem for the tax man. A big problem for those of us who believe in fair dealing.

P.S. I've bought a number of items from the UK over the internet, and when I enter my US address to check out the shopping cart backs out the VAT so I don't pay it. It's perfectly appropriate, legal, simple, and fair. ELC and Aero could do the same if they wanted to (multiplying a price by .8 to back out the VAT isn't rocket science), but for rather obvious reasons they'd rather keep their windfall profit.

P.P.S. I am a big fan of the UK. I studied at Oxford in college, have loved my time in London, and think Scotland is one of the best places on earth. This isn't Brit bashing; if a US seller were doing the same to overseas buyers I'd criticize them, too.

 

[Persimmon]

Alan,
Eastman and Aero can charge whatever they like for their jackets. The choice is with the customer,as all the prices are clearly stated on their websites. There are no extras at the cashout as when buying airlines tickets.
The beef seems to be that some people are not dissatisfied at paying the same as domestic customers, but that they want to pay LESS than them. There are other options, use HPA or buy from US Authentic or Real McCoys. I understand that HPA prices are considerably higher than Eastman's and they even charge for using a credit card.
All jackets are very expensive there is no way to avoid it. You can afford them or you can't .
Re the Amazon order, I paid £14 import duty

John John John !!!
Please try and consider what is being said here.

It is and was about CLARITY

Not Brti Bashing, Bonded Warehouses, Eastman or Aero not be able to sell at whatever price they Like, Red Tails (more movies John !!), Amazon, the requirement to paying less, etc etc etc

John. It is about clarity on their selling position.

 

[John Lever]

Understood. I have been talking to Will and Gary so maybe they might clarify the situation.
The complications seem to have begun when customers started to go directly to the Eastman site and not through HPA.

 

[John Lever]

Alan,
Eastman and Aero can charge whatever they like for their jackets. The choice is with the customer,as all the prices are clearly stated on their websites. There are no extras at the cashout as when buying airlines tickets.
The beef seems to be that some people are not dissatisfied at paying the same as domestic customers, but that they want to pay LESS than them. There are other options, use HPA or buy from US Authentic or Real McCoys. I understand that HPA prices are considerably higher than Eastman's and they even charge for using a credit card.
All jackets are very expensive there is no way to avoid it. You can afford them or you can't .
Re the Amazon order, I paid £14 import duty

John John John !!!
Please try and consider what is being said here.

It is and was about CLARITY

Not Brti Bashing, Bonded Warehouses, Eastman or Aero not be able to sell at whatever price they Like, Red Tails (more movies John !!), Amazon, the requirement to paying less, etc etc etc

John. It is about clarity on their selling position.

Ok, Ok
I do see what you are saying. They have one price for all customers, but not declaring that this price includes VAT.?
I think this is why HPA came in to the equation. But when US customers got sick of HPA prices and came to the Eastman domestic site they get charged VAT and now think they should not pay it ?
Until the site changes and is rebuilt for overseas customers then it will continue. But they do know the cost when they place an order so they do have a choice.

 

[Persimmon]

Understood. I have been talking to Will and Gary so maybe they might clarify the situation.
The complications seem to have begun when customers started to go directly to the Eastman site and not through HPA.

And what about Aero
They know longer have Mr Mark after his vanishing trick.
They can only sell direct I guess at the moment

Perhaps as you seem to have the Hot Line contacts to Eastman you could ask for clarity on the Aero position as well

 

[ButteMT61]

P.S. I've bought a number of items from the UK over the internet, and when I enter my US address to check out the shopping cart backs out the VAT so I don't pay it. It's perfectly appropriate, legal, simple, and fair. ELC and Aero could do the same if they wanted to (multiplying a price by .8 to back out the VAT isn't rocket science), but for rather obvious reasons they'd rather keep their windfall profit.

P.P.S. I am a big fan of the UK. I studied at Oxford in college, have loved my time in London, and think Scotland is one of the best places on earth. This isn't Brit bashing; if a US seller were doing the same to overseas buyers I'd criticize them, too.

I agree. I don't know anyone who has any negative feelings about the Brits and the UK. I've bought almost all my jackets from there. You don't hear the same about China or India here or other jacket places. That is 100% not happening. I think anyone - any company - would get a lashing for this practice, regardless of location. Mark Moye took a beating on all the forums - being in the US didn't spare him one iota.

 

[SuinBruin]

Ok, Ok
But they are clear, the prices are there for all to see !

A British buyer knows that VAT is included in the price. An overseas buyer probably does not know this, especially those of us from the US where sales tax is added on to the retail price at the time of purchase. A US buyer probably also doesn't know that he shouldn't have to pay VAT. It appears that ELC and Aero are trying to take advantage of this ignorance. Case in point, Gary's emails to Jeff as shown in this thread.

If ELC disclosed that its prices were VAT inclusive but it did not discount them for overseas sales, then the buyer could make an informed decision. But it doesn't, and when asked directly about it, ELC chose to muddle the issue rather than admit that it was getting an extra 20% margin on out-of-EU sales.

 

[John Lever]

Understood. I have been talking to Will and Gary so maybe they might clarify the situation.
The complications seem to have begun when customers started to go directly to the Eastman site and not through HPA.

And what about Aero
They know longer have Mr Mark after his vanishing trick.
They can only sell direct I guess at the moment

Perhaps as you seem to have the Hot Line contacts to Eastman you could ask for clarity on the Aero position as well

Will is aware of the situation but I don't want to quote or worse mis-quote him. The gist I got was that I think customers have to make their own choice and prices will probably remain the same.

 

[Jeff M]

...

P.P.S. I am a big fan of the UK. I studied at Oxford in college, have loved my time in London, and think Scotland is one of the best places on earth. This isn't Brit bashing; if a US seller were doing the same to overseas buyers I'd criticize them, too.

Me too. (With the exception of studying at Oxford.
My daughter did study at St. Andrews for a while though!)

We have very close family in Scotland, and try to make it over there as much as possible. Generally ends up being every other summer.
Our favorite world city is London.
I continually rave about visiting the UK to friends and family.
Our house looks like it was decorated by a mad UK tea shop decorator.

That is a large part of the reason why this why this whole VAT issue has thrown me for a loop. Never run into it before with any of our other UK dealings.
Feels a bit like getting mugged by a friend.

 

[Jeff M]

Understood. I have been talking to Will and Gary so maybe they might clarify the situation.
The complications seem to have begun when customers started to go directly to the Eastman site and not through HPA.

And what about Aero
They know longer have Mr Mark after his vanishing trick.
They can only sell direct I guess at the moment

Perhaps as you seem to have the Hot Line contacts to Eastman you could ask for clarity on the Aero position as well

Will is aware of the situation but I don't want to quote or worse mis-quote him. The gist I got was that I think customers have to make their own choice and prices will probably remain the same.

That's fine. Totally agree.
Work to avoid any misunderstangs though.

 

[John Lever]

Multiplying the total cost by 0.8 does not remove the VAT to give the total, it's an easy mistake to make.
It is the total divided by 120 than multiplied by 100.
e.g.
100 incl VAT
100/120 = 0.83
x 100 =83.33 base price before tax
x 20% =16.66 VAT

 

[unclegrumpy]

If I drive to Oregon to buy a car, I don't pay sales tax. That will save me $2000 on a $20,000 car that I would buy in CA. I'm not paying less for the car in Oregon - I'm not paying taxes! The car still costs me $20,000. Very simple math.

I have bad news for you. Unless you keep the car registered in Oregon and can keep the Oregon plates from being noticed by the CHP or your local police, you will get hit with all the California taxes at the CA DMV.....same goes for Washington State.

The bastards will even try to charge you the sales tax you if you are moving to the State....I am not sure what the current rules are, but it used to be you have to prove you have owned the vehicle for over six months and were new to the State.

 

[SuinBruin]

Multiplying the total cost by 0.8 does not remove the VAT to give the total, it's an easy mistake to make.
It is the total divided by 120 than multiplied by 100.
e.g.
100 incl VAT
100/120 = 0.83
x 100 =83.33 base price before tax
x 20% =16.66 VAT

Good point, thanks. Still a very simple mathematical calculation to make.

 

[John Lever]

One thing we all have in common- we hate taxes. Unfortunately as a wise man one said, 'there are two certainties in life, Death and Taxes.'
We have the added problem a of completely rabid customs/ import tax regime. Nothing much gets in particularly from Japan and NZ. I remember paying over £350 VAT and duty when buying from RMNZ. Similarly any ebay purchase from the US gets hammered.