Rare blue B-15C with olive wrist knits

[watchmanjimg]

How tortured must this analysis become? The knits in question are of a noticeably different composition than the typical wool seen on every other OD, blue, and sage nylon jacket I've ever seen. If in fact these were dyed OD knits, which L-2 contract did they come from? Can anyone point to an original L-2 with atypical knits that resemble cotton or other plant-based material? Surely they must have existed in order for their leftover knits to be dyed blue and used in Superior Togs L-2As and Albert Turner B-15Cs.

My Reed L-2 has replacement knits because its originals were likely chewed to bits by moths, as one might expect of knits made from wool. So was it American Pad and Textile that used the cottony knits? It's fine to theorize that the knits in question were dyed blue over OD, but show me an OD jacket that has this type of knit. How did this slip past the R&D folks at Toyo Enterprises anyway?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful or disparage anyone, but I'd like to see more evidence based on actual jackets rather than hypothesis. I've got two original Superior Togs L-2As here whose collars are beginning to fade to a greyish-olive tone. The larger photo Rich posted earlier clearly shows that the jacket everyone is so riled up about does not have uniformly faded knits, and in fact the waistband appears to be unaffected while the collar and cuffs show uneven fading. Interestingly, these areas are more likely to have been exposed to the sun while flying.

 

[Anonymous]

I had an N-2A with original faded to green knits, It looked to me as if they started out green then were dyed blue and then got dry-cleaned and went back to green. I don't understand not believing there weren't green knits- plenty of evidence for it. For me the fact that the Japanese copied it is almost proof enough. Probably they were L-2 and B-15B knits either dyed or used as is by some companies. Just a thought...

 

[deeb7]

What convinced me, and I've posted this before, was seeing the photographs posted by Brooks (bgbdesign) on the old VLJ forum. Brooks has rebuilt many nylon jackets, and his photos showed cuffs alongside the sleeves they were removed from. All the exposed part was green, and full of holes ... the other end looking like new, and still the original blue colour.

John Chapman suggests that perhaps the AAF/USAF had a stock of now surplus L-2 knits that were then badly over-dyed dark blue. He also suggested dry cleaning as a likely cause of the fading.

 

[watchmanjimg]

What convinced me, and I've posted this before, was seeing the photographs posted by Brooks (bgbdesign) on the old VLJ forum. Brooks has rebuilt many nylon jackets, and his photos showed cuffs alongside the sleeves they were removed from. All the exposed part was green, and full of holes ... the other end looking like new, and still the original blue colour.

John Chapman suggests that perhaps the AAF/USAF had a stock of now surplus L-2 knits that were then badly over-dyed dark blue. He also suggested dry cleaning as a likely cause of the fading.

David, this supports the theory of fading versus blue jackets manufactured with OD knits but doesn't address the question of the atypical knit composition in the two contracts specified in Full Gear. Which L-2 contract didn't use wool knits? Based on my Reed it wasn't them (original knits replaced due to moth damage), and here's an American Pad and Textile that appears to have original (and fairly mothy) wool knits:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1939&p=20697&hilit=american+pad+textile#p20697

I recall Brooks' photos, but it's been awhile. However, the type of knits being discussed here would not be full of holes (at least not the typical moth holes) because evidently they're not wool. Regarding JC's theory, while I hold him in the highest esteem he has demonstrated a wizardry with leather jackets--nylon, not so much. Standard knits generally don't fade from dry-cleaning, but if these did then why wouldn't those depicted in Brooks' photos be faded all the way to the top? The cleaning fluids would surely have saturated them, wouldn't they? If we choose instead to attribute the fading to exposure, then the portion under the nylon shell and not subjected to sunlight would understandably retain its blue color.

It would be a lot easier for me to accept the idea that the fade-prone knits were originally OD and dyed blue if someone could show me which OD jacket used the variant knit composition as seen in the Superior Togs L-2A and Albert Turner B-15C.

 

[deeb7]

It would be a lot easier for me to accept the idea that the fade-prone knits were originally OD and dyed blue if someone could show me which OD jacket used the variant knit composition as seen in the Superior Togs L-2A and Albert Turner B-15C.

It's just one possible scenario and the knits may have been purchased for possible L-2 contracts ... so never actually used on any OD jacket contract.

John was also told that some L-2A knits were made of nylon, could they be the examples you have that are obviously not wool?

 

[asiamiles]

Buzz B-15C mod...with faded collar knit :!: Also note that the zipper tape has changed from blue to green.

 

[RCSignals]

But it's a reproduction. Can we take the 'behaviour' of a reproduction and draw conclusion about an original?
Could Buzz have died their green tape zippers blue for these?

 

[deeb7]

But it's a reproduction. Can we take the 'behaviour' of a reproduction and draw conclusion about an original?

It illustrates well how quickly these changes can occur. As I write, the knits on my Alpha Replica B-15C continue to fade, and redden ... and it's living in a darkened room.

 

[Dr H]

Especially true of areas that are exposed to UV radiation (which will bleach dyed fabric) and/or variations in pH (as in the above, where sweat is present).
The dyes used in the 40s and 50s wouldn't have been particularly colourfast.

 

[watchmanjimg]

It would be a lot easier for me to accept the idea that the fade-prone knits were originally OD and dyed blue if someone could show me which OD jacket used the variant knit composition as seen in the Superior Togs L-2A and Albert Turner B-15C.

It's just one possible scenario and the knits may have been purchased for possible L-2 contracts ... so never actually used on any OD jacket contract.

So now we're speculating that there were OD knits purchased for "possible" L-2 contracts but differed from the standard wool type that had been used in the WW2-era cloth and earlier OD nylon jackets, were never actually used on any OD jacket contract, and were subsequently dyed and used in two unrelated contracts for blue jackets?

John was also told that some L-2A knits were made of nylon, could they be the examples you have that are obviously not wool?

Told by whom? I've never heard you mention having read this in any of the recognized treatises, and you mention them plenty.

I have also not heard it mentioned anecdotally--until now. We've both been into this hobby for some time. Have you ever heard this before--or more importantly, have you seen such knits? I haven't, and the knits on my L-2As don't appear to be nylon. If I had to guess I'd say they're a blend of cotton and possibly a plant-based fiber such as ramie, but they could be partially comprised of rayon. I've seen plenty of nylon knits on civilian jackets and aside from melting from the application of extreme heat, they appeared as indestructible as those disgusting nylon dress socks guys used to wear. They certainly don't fade. :lol:

But it's a reproduction. Can we take the 'behaviour' of a reproduction and draw conclusion about an original?

It illustrates well how quickly these changes can occur. As I write, the knits on my Alpha Replica B-15C continue to fade, and redden ... and it's living in a darkened room.

Based on the foregoing, would you now assume that your Alpha knits were originally red and dyed blue? I suspect not. What you're seeing is typical of the reaction of some blue dye to sunlight, some of the time. Remember the photos of the Rickson L-2A whose pocket flaps had been purposely exposed to sunlight? They turned reddish-purple. When you look at my size 40 Superior Togs L-2A up close there is a mild purplish hue to the edge of the collar. The size 42 example exhibits heavier fading and runs toward a greyish-green approaching that of the collar and cuffs on the jacket in Rich's photo.

Especially true of areas that are exposed to UV radiation (which will bleach dyed fabric) and/or variations in pH (as in the above, where sweat is present).
The dyes used in the 40s and 50s wouldn't have been particularly colourfast.

Well said, particularly as you refer to variations as seen from one wearer to another, one jacket to another, one type of exposure to another.

Take a closer look at the cuffs of Aviationetc's B-15C. Do they really look green, or more of a reddish tan?

 

[deeb7]

It illustrates well how quickly these changes can occur. As I write, the knits on my Alpha Replica B-15C continue to fade, and redden ... and it's living in a darkened room.

Based on the foregoing, would you now assume that your Alpha knits were originally red and dyed blue? I suspect not. What you're seeing is typical of the reaction of some blue dye to sunlight, some of the time. Remember the photos of the Rickson L-2A whose pocket flaps had been purposely exposed to sunlight? They turned reddish-purple. When you look at my size 40 Superior Togs L-2A up close there is a mild purplish hue to the edge of the collar. The size 42 example exhibits heavier fading and runs toward a greyish-green approaching that of the collar and cuffs on the jacket in Rich's photo.

This one has me puzzled, as you say it's typical of the reaction of some blue dye to sunlight, which the jacket sees maybe twice a year. The reddening was present only on the fold when I bought the jacket, now it's most noticeable on the inner surface of the cuff, which sees no light at all when it's hanging.

Perhaps I left in the van one afternoon ... UV is vicious in NZ.

 

[watchmanjimg]

It illustrates well how quickly these changes can occur. As I write, the knits on my Alpha Replica B-15C continue to fade, and redden ... and it's living in a darkened room.

Based on the foregoing, would you now assume that your Alpha knits were originally red and dyed blue? I suspect not. What you're seeing is typical of the reaction of some blue dye to sunlight, some of the time. Remember the photos of the Rickson L-2A whose pocket flaps had been purposely exposed to sunlight? They turned reddish-purple. When you look at my size 40 Superior Togs L-2A up close there is a mild purplish hue to the edge of the collar. The size 42 example exhibits heavier fading and runs toward a greyish-green approaching that of the collar and cuffs on the jacket in Rich's photo.

This one has me puzzled, as you say it's typical of the reaction of some blue dye to sunlight, which the jacket sees maybe twice a year. The reddening was present only on the fold when I bought the jacket, now it's most noticeable on the inner surface of the cuff, which sees no light at all when it's hanging.

Perhaps I left in the van one afternoon ... UV is vicious in NZ.

Lord knows, David. I concluded the reaction was typical based on observations of jackets known to have been subjected to sunlight, in some cases deliberately. Maybe it's the PH of your perspiration as Dr. H suggested. This could explain why the waistbands of the L-2A and B-15C we've been discussing are seemingly unaffected. They wouldn't have been against bare flesh when worn.

 

[Dr H]

Well, pH, salinity, heat/warmth and UV (especially in the cuffs exposed to UV/ozone at altitude) would be ideal conditions to accelerate chemical reaction, especially oxidation.

The blue dyes will oxidise to produce more carbon-carbon double bonds making the dyes appear first green, then yellow and finally orange/red as they absorb at longer wavelengths.

As the dyes (like inks) are typically combinations of different coloured pigments as the more unstable are bleached by sunlight and lose colour then the colour of mixture in the knit will change...

Particularly older (cotton based) knits will also degrade thermally/oxidatively to make unsaturated chains (contributing to the yellowing).

Nylon knits would be more stable as they degrade by a different mechanism (although some aromatic polyesters such as Kevlar have poor UV stability as they contain lots of aromatic rings, which absorb UV like mad...)

So, although Kevlar would be a better bet in a fire, they do need to be stored carefully...

OK, school's out now...enjoy the weekend :ugeek:

 

[Dr H]

Aromatic polyesters like PET...aromatic polyamides like Kevlar or Nomex...apologies

 

[Rutger]

Aromatic polyesters like PET...aromatic polyamides like Kevlar or Nomex...apologies

Don't be sorry, you lost me totally in the second sentence.

 

[Anonymous]

Dr, H:

The dyes used in the 40s and 50s wouldn't have been particularly colourfast.

Dr. H:

The blue dyes will oxidise to produce more carbon-carbon double bonds making the dyes appear first green, then yellow and finally orange/red as they absorb at longer wavelengths.

As the dyes (like inks) are typically combinations of different coloured pigments as the more unstable are bleached by sunlight and lose colour then the colour of mixture in the knit will change...

Particularly older (cotton based) knits will also degrade thermally/oxidatively to make unsaturated chains (contributing to the yellowing).

Nylon knits would be more stable as they degrade by a different mechanism (although some aromatic polyesters such as Kevlar have poor UV stability as they contain lots of aromatic rings, which absorb UV like mad...)

So, although Kevlar would be a better bet in a fire, they do need to be stored carefully...

OK, school's out now...enjoy the weekend

Really? My Bullshittometer needle has broken off! Funny that actual examples don't seem to back much of this up!

 

[Dr H]

Broken or not ... no bullshit...
I'll send literature to substantiate it if you're that interested...

 

[Anonymous]

Dr. H:

Broken or not ... no bullshit...
I'll send literature to substantiate it if you're that interested...

Uh-no literature thanks- logic will do...
First- Except for a few examples most flight jacket knits I've seen (and that's quite a few) have seemed pretty much like modern knits as far as the colorfastness of dye is concerned. That is- some seem very colorfast- others not so much- just like stuff today- in fact considering their age etc. vintage clothes including flight jackets from the 40s and 50s seem to have been dyed with stuff the equal or better of stuff today. That's my experience.
Second- vintage jacket knits- specifically the ones in question an the B-15C were made of wool so your whole cotton-based nylon-based yarn was beside the point.
Third- a cursory internet search proves that Kevlar is a polyamide- not a polyester as you have stated.
So that Bullshitometer needle is still pegged over all the way to the right- it ain't movin'...

 

[deeb7]

Third- a cursory internet search proves that Kevlar is a polyamide- not a polyester as you have stated.

A typo, which Dr. H corrected with his following post ...

Aromatic polyesters like PET...aromatic polyamides like Kevlar or Nomex...apologies

 

[Dr H]

Dr. H:

Broken or not ... no bullshit...
I'll send literature to substantiate it if you're that interested...

Uh-no literature thanks- logic will do...
First- Except for a few examples most flight jacket knits I've seen (and that's quite a few) have seemed pretty much like modern knits as far as the colorfastness of dye is concerned. That is- some seem very colorfast- others not so much- just like stuff today- in fact considering their age etc. vintage clothes including flight jackets from the 40s and 50s seem to have been dyed with stuff the equal or better of stuff today. That's my experience.
Second- vintage jacket knits- specifically the ones in question an the B-15C were made of wool so your whole cotton-based nylon-based yarn was beside the point.
Third- a cursory internet search proves that Kevlar is a polyamide- not a polyester as you have stated.
So that Bullshitometer needle is still pegged over all the way to the right- it ain't movin'...

PM sent by means of explanation and calibration of that meter...