Rare blue B-15C with olive wrist knits

[asiamiles]

Is Buzz wearing the same L-2A here? Go to #36 bottom right. That patch on the left chest looks different to me...someone with more knowledge than me will probably instantly be able to ID both patches. Note that neither seems to have a USAAF decal on the left sleeve.
http://buzzaldrin.com/the-man/gallery

 

[watchmanjimg]

Is Buzz wearing the same L-2A here? Go to #36 bottom right. That patch on the left chest looks different to me...someone with more knowledge than me will probably instantly be able to ID both patches. Note that neither seems to have a USAAF decal on the left sleeve.
http://buzzaldrin.com/the-man/gallery

I was tempted to post that picture myself. The patch is different but we can neither confirm nor deny it's the same jacket. One thing is certain--the knits are blue. The plot thickens . . .

 

[deeb7]

Assuming the photo is unretouched, we've seen anomalies in nylon jackets based on exposure to any number of things (including the completely UV-faded MA-1 I once owned). I still have a hard time ruling this out as the culprit.

I agree ... like many things, the art of dyeing has come a long way since the 1950's. Back then dyes were not always as colourfast, and changes such as blue to green were not that uncommon.

 

[dmar836]

I was just going to add that that seller has always been a nut case.

 

[RCSignals]

If Aldrin is wearing the same jacket, his wrist and waist knits changed colour uniformly and apparently concurrently.

 

[Weasel_Loader]

AF

Sorry, but this isn't Buzz Aldrin in the above photo. Pretty sure Buzz was just a Lt. during the Korean War. The person in the photo (olive knits) is either a Major or Lt. Col.

Not the same jacket or pilot pictured here.

 

[RCSignals]

That clears that up

 

[asiamiles]

That clears that up

No really. Now we can't ID either the man or the jacket! Have to say, I had no idea what Buzz looked like, but to my eyes it looked like the same guy in both photos, the bottom one maybe a couple years longer.

 

[watchmanjimg]

It's definitely not Aldrin. Click on this link and scroll to the bottom:

http://www.fabulousrocketeers.com/Photo_Padtime.htm

While you're at it, check out the guy in the A-2 at left:

 

[Atticus]

Well, if it isn't Aldrin in both photos (and it seems not to be), then we're back to square one with our mystery. Regardless of who is the short Lt. Col. in the first photo, he's wearing an L-2A that couldn't be more than a couple of years old when the photo was taken...and it has green knits. I guess there are only three possible explanations…the knits faded, the knits were replaced or the jacket was made with green knits.

So... to adopt the fade theory we must:

1) Accept that the jacket's knits faded in only a couple of years.

2) Accept that the collar, waist band and cuffs all faded together, essentially uniformly.

3) Accept that the knits all faded from Air Force Blue to light olive green, a color that coincidentally was used for the knits of the jacket that preceded the L-2A in the Air Force inventory.

To adopt the replacement theory we must:

1) Accept that this pilot had a reason to replace all of the knits on his jacket at the same time, even though the jacket was only two or three years old.

2) Accept that he couldn’t or...at least didn’t...get them replaced with proper blue knits, even though blue was the standard color for Air Force jacket knits at the time.

Or…finally…maybe Buzz Rickson is right and a rare few L-2As were made with green knits and the various inspectors just let Albert Turner or Tops or whoever slide with the error.

AF

 

[watchmanjimg]

Geoff, we must have been typing at the same time. Custom tailoring, embroidery, etc. was always readily and cheaply available overseas, particularly in Korea, Japan, and later Vietnam. Accordingly, many servicemen had uniforms made to measure or in some cases modified to personal taste. Who's to say that the aviator in this photo didn't have the knits changed simply because he liked the contrast?

My argument has always been that it's unlikely blue jackets were actually produced with OD knits, but anyone could have the knits changed if they so chose.

 

[rich]

Swung the colours around a bit...........

 

[deeb7]

Or…finally…maybe Buzz Rickson is right and a rare few L-2As were made with green knits and the various inspectors just let Albert Turner or Tops or whoever slide with the error.

With the L-2A, Superior Togs is always the culprit. Their contract came later than the other two makers (Foster, and Pritzker), and none of the three had been awarded L-2 contracts.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Swung the colours around a bit...........

Rich, I think you've demonstrated that those knits are far from uniformly OD in color. The waistband in particular looks pretty blue to me. You inspired me to photograph my original Reed L-2 and Superior Togs L-2As side by side in direct sunlight:

The knits on the L-2 are MASH replacements, but I think we'd all agree the OD color is accurate. Both L-2As retain their original knits. Both collars exhibit fading, the middle jacket in particular. A bit more, and depending on the lighting it could resemble OD.

Or…finally…maybe Buzz Rickson is right and a rare few L-2As were made with green knits and the various inspectors just let Albert Turner or Tops or whoever slide with the error.

With the L-2A, Superior Togs is always the culprit. Their contract came later than the other two makers (Foster, and Pritzker), and none of the three had been awarded L-2 contracts.

David, this is an excellent point. I was meaning to ask whether any L-2A contracts were awarded to companies that had previously manufactured OD jackets. In light of your post one has to wonder if they would have had green knits on hand to begin with, let alone install them on blue jackets.

Additionally, you mention Superior Togs as the culprit. Is this per Buzz Rickson, or is there independent evidence? I ask because I've noticed that Superior Togs L-2As apparently used a different knit material than the standard wool type seen on every other jacket (or at least my originals do). If nothing else this is a glaring inaccuracy in the Rickson interpretation, but I'd say my pics strongly support the notion that fading is the true explanation of this phenomenon.

 

[Atticus]

...Both collars exhibit fading, the middle jacket in particular. A bit more, and depending on the lighting it could resemble OD...I'd say my pics strongly support the notion that fading is the true explanation of this phenomenon.

But your L-2As are sixty yeas old and are barely faded...and both jackets were evidently made by the suspect contractor. Not exactly a smoking gun for the fade theory, eh, Counselor!

AF

 

[deeb7]

David, this is an excellent point. I was meaning to ask whether any L-2A contracts were awarded to companies that had previously manufactured OD jackets. In light of your post one has to wonder if they would have had green knits on hand to begin with, let alone install them on blue jackets.

Additionally, you mention Superior Togs as the culprit. Is this per Buzz Rickson, or is there independent evidence? I ask because I've noticed that Superior Togs L-2As apparently used a different knit material than the standard wool type seen on every other jacket (or at least my originals do). If nothing else this is a glaring inaccuracy in the Rickson interpretation, but I'd say my pics strongly support the notion that fading is the true explanation of this phenomenon.

The information came from Full Gear, Jim ... The Superior Togs L-2A contract listing notes fading knits, likewise with the Albert Turner B-15C.

Like the Superior Togs L-2A, the Albert Turner was actually the last blue B-15C contract, both being from FY 1952.

 

[watchmanjimg]

David, this is an excellent point. I was meaning to ask whether any L-2A contracts were awarded to companies that had previously manufactured OD jackets. In light of your post one has to wonder if they would have had green knits on hand to begin with, let alone install them on blue jackets.

Additionally, you mention Superior Togs as the culprit. Is this per Buzz Rickson, or is there independent evidence? I ask because I've noticed that Superior Togs L-2As apparently used a different knit material than the standard wool type seen on every other jacket (or at least my originals do). If nothing else this is a glaring inaccuracy in the Rickson interpretation, but I'd say my pics strongly support the notion that fading is the true explanation of this phenomenon.

The information came from Full Gear, Jim ... The Superior Togs L-2A contract listing notes fading knits, likewise with the Albert Turner B-15C.

Like the Superior Togs L-2A, the Albert Turner was actually the last blue B-15C contract, both being from FY 1952.

So the treatise acknowledges fading as a noted issue with these contracts, while Buzz Rickson states it as a rare production variant. Hmmm, which one do we choose to believe? :?

...Both collars exhibit fading, the middle jacket in particular. A bit more, and depending on the lighting it could resemble OD...I'd say my pics strongly support the notion that fading is the true explanation of this phenomenon.

But your L-2As are sixty yeas old and are barely faded...and both jackets were evidently made by the suspect contractor. Not exactly a smoking gun for the fade theory, eh, Counselor!

AF

Geoff, see above. My jackets are sixty years old and are barely faded, but the fact that they exist at all suggests they didn't see much action. We can't ignore the possibility that they saw little or no military use, but even if they had it didn't have to be actual flight duty. Imagine how much more sun exposure occurs under a clear canopy miles above the earth, versus walking from one's car to an enclosed and climate-controlled office in some admin building on base. Does this really require a leap of logic? Moreover, my Superior Togs L-2As and the Turner B-15C in the Ebay link have the atypical knit material that is known to fade.

You're free to challenge my theory (supported by Full Gear as well as actual photos), but based on what? Your apparently unshakable belief that Buzz Rickson got it right while the rest of us are wrong? Need I remind you of the debunking of the red MA-1 photo in their catalog?

Remember, Mr. Prosecutor, you have the burden of proof here.

 

[asiamiles]

The knits on the L-2 are MASH replacements, but I think we'd all agree the OD color is accurate. Both L-2As retain their original knits. Both collars exhibit fading, the middle jacket in particular. A bit more, and depending on the lighting it could resemble OD.

More than that. It may be coincidence, but those knits look like they may have started out OD and were dyed blue.

 

[Atticus]

Geoff, see above. My jackets are sixty years old and are barely faded, but the fact that they exist at all suggests they didn't see much action. We can't ignore the possibility that they saw little or no military use, but even if they had it didn't have to be actual flight duty. Imagine how much more sun exposure occurs under a clear canopy miles above the earth, versus walking from one's car to an enclosed and climate-controlled office in some admin building on base. Does this really require a leap of logic? Moreover, my Superior Togs L-2As and the Turner B-15C in the Ebay link have the atypical knit material that is known to fade.

You're free to challenge my theory (supported by Full Gear as well as actual photos), but based on what? Your apparently unshakable belief that Buzz Rickson got it right while the rest of us are wrong? Need I remind you of the debunking of the red MA-1 photo in their catalog?

Remember, Mr. Prosecutor, you have the burden of proof here.

Naw, I don't believe in no Buzz Rickson crapola...I'm a replacement conspiracy theorist. Always have been. While I'm not absolutely, totally dismissing the fade conspiracy theory, I struggle mightily with the probability that blue L-2A knits "faded" to the same green color as L-2 knits.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, of all the colors in the spectrum that blue L-2A knits could fade into, the defendant is here asking you to believe that these knits somehow managed to pick L-2 green. Not purple. Not sky blue. Not grey. Not pink with orange poka dots. No, gentle members of the jury...these knits picked green as their fade-to color of choice. Yes, L-2 green...the same green as was the color of the thousands of L-2 and B-15B knits...left begging to be used for something, anything...in Quartermaster stocks throughout the Air Force after 1949. Mere coincidence? I ask you jurors...what are the odds?

AF

*Remember, I get last argument, cause you've put on evidence and I have the burden.

 

[RCSignals]

The knits on the L-2 are MASH replacements, but I think we'd all agree the OD color is accurate. Both L-2As retain their original knits. Both collars exhibit fading, the middle jacket in particular. A bit more, and depending on the lighting it could resemble OD.

More than that. It may be coincidence, but those knits look like they may have started out OD and were dyed blue.

Funny you say that, I was thinking it might explain the wrist knits on the jacket being auctioned. A very poor dye over green knits. If that is the case though it must only have been the wrist knits done in such a way as the waist knit is definitely blue. You'd also think since it is a production jacket there would be a whole lot more in evidence with such wrist knits. A whole batch of green knits enough for a contract run must have been dyed for this event, otherwise there would be a mix of green-dyed blue and straight blue wrist knit jackets in existence, wouldn't there?