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Rare blue B-15C with olive wrist knits

bretron

Member
SuinBruin said:
I love this forum. Eight pages on the coloration of nylon jacket knits and still going strong....

+1 this is why my fam and friends know I'm "different" from the norm- just gave an impromptu lecture at work on the value of NOS zippers- LOL!!
 

watchmanjimg

Well-Known Member
asiamiles said:
watchmanjimg said:
Forum member Bebel just listed this Albert Turner B-15C for sale here:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11218

Note the excellent condition of the knits despite the obviously well-used shell and collar, although some fading of the cuffs is apparent. This is further evidence of the variant knit material we discussed earlier in the thread.
Actually not sure there is any "turning green" evident there though, just slight fading that you'd expect on a 50-year old jacket; looks to be a stain on the one cuff, just as there is on the one sleeve...we have to remember these were being worn to do a job. Additionally, the light (and camera flash) can make things look not quite as they are.

I never claimed there was any turning green evident in these knits, nor was there on some of the other jackets we've talked about here. However, you make a valid point regarding the effect of light and camera flash on the apparent color of knits in photos--though this is lost on those who desperately cling to the notion that a new Air Force would establish its distinct identity via jackets assembled with recycled knits. Clearly this phenomenon occurs in varying degrees from jacket to jacket. Some are observed with greenish knits, some purplish/reddish, some are in between.

What's most significant in my view is the absence of mothing to the knits of such a well-worn jacket, which tells us they're not wool and thus were not conventional OD knits dyed blue. I have plenty of 50-year-old jackets with original wool knits and none exhibit fading, so I'm not sure I follow you there. Do you find that original GI wool knits tend to fade? I've not seen this and I must own at least 50 original nylon jackets.
 

RCSignals

Active Member
If they are synthetic then may be more susceptible to fade and colour shift, I agree.
On the dyed knits theory, I also agree its dubious, and doubt it's something the Airforce would ask for. It may be something though that a contractor might do if they had a quantity of knits left from a previous contract. Only wool knits would qualify easily. Still not too likely though, but is it impossible? Obviously it's just a theory.
 

RCSignals

Active Member
watchmanjimg said:
Forum member Bebel just listed this Albert Turner B-15C for sale here:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11218

Note the excellent condition of the knits despite the obviously well-used shell and collar, although some fading of the cuffs is apparent. This is further evidence of the variant knit material we discussed earlier in the thread.

Kind of surprising that anything other than wool would be specified for knits. How common is it to find originals with synthetic knits?
 

watchmanjimg

Well-Known Member
RCSignals said:
watchmanjimg said:
Forum member Bebel just listed this Albert Turner B-15C for sale here:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11218

Note the excellent condition of the knits despite the obviously well-used shell and collar, although some fading of the cuffs is apparent. This is further evidence of the variant knit material we discussed earlier in the thread.

Kind of surprising that anything other than wool would be specified for knits. How common is it to find originals with synthetic knits?

As far as I can tell it's not too common, and I've neither seen nor heard of this outside of the blue jackets. The Superior Togs L-2A and Albert Turner B-15C discussed in this thread are known examples of contracts using the oddball knits, but I'm unaware of any others. I've never seen a Pritzker B-15C with these knits, nor an N-2A by any maker. I'd also point out that the knits don't necessarily appear to be synthetic as they have a cottony texture. They could be a cotton blend, or possibly another plant-based fiber.
 

watchmanjimg

Well-Known Member
RCSignals said:
If they are synthetic then may be more susceptible to fade and colour shift, I agree.
On the dyed knits theory, I also agree its dubious, and doubt it's something the Airforce would ask for. It may be something though that a contractor might do if they had a quantity of knits left from a previous contract. Only wool knits would qualify easily. Still not too likely though, but is it impossible? Obviously it's just a theory.

Not impossible of course, but which previous contract would they be left over from? I have yet to see a B-10, B-15, L-2, or other OD jacket with other than wool knits. Then there's the question of quality control in an age when those words actually meant something. Would the dyed knits have passed muster? If I were to theorize, I'd say the knits in question could have been produced in hopes of eliminating the possibility of moth damage, but their poor colorfastness prevented widespread adoption.
 

asiamiles

Well-Known Member
watchmanjimg said:
What's most significant in my view is the absence of mothing to the knits of such a well-worn jacket, which tells us they're not wool and thus were not conventional OD knits dyed blue.
Can we be sure these knits are original to the jacket?
 

watchmanjimg

Well-Known Member
asiamiles said:
watchmanjimg said:
What's most significant in my view is the absence of mothing to the knits of such a well-worn jacket, which tells us they're not wool and thus were not conventional OD knits dyed blue.
Can we be sure these knits are original to the jacket?

I'd say so. We've now observed numerous other jackets produced under the contracts in question (two of which are in my collection) and they all exhibit the same unique texture and characteristic fading, albeit to varying degrees. We also have the specific reference to fading knits in Full Gear. Could the knits have been replaced on all these jackets? As this type of knit seems impervious to moths there would be no reason to replace them other than damage from extended use, which is not the case in this particular example.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Jim:
nor an N-2A by any maker.

As I said before- I had an N2-A with green knits. They were made of that cottony seeming material but I'm not 100% sure they still weren't wool. I've seen wool that felt like cotton and vice versa...
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Jim:
Could the knits have been replaced on all these jackets?

I'll be thinkin' not! WQe're getting way off the critical thinking path here :) ...
 

watchmanjimg

Well-Known Member
rotenhahn said:
Jim:
nor an N-2A by any maker.

As I said before- I had an N2-A with green knits. They were made of that cottony seeming material but I'm not 100% sure they still weren't wool. I've seen wool that felt like cotton and vice versa...

As the former owner of the Albert Turner B-15C featured in JC's CD-ROM you certainly had a chance to examine this type of knit firsthand, and you previously indicated noticing the difference. In my opinion there's no way of confusing them with standard wool knits, but of course your mileage may vary. Are you sure your N-2A had its original knits? That's an entirely different question than the one Miles asked earlier tonight, and which you apparently made light of here (I assume you understood that my quote was in response to his question as to whether Bebel's B-15C had replacement knits):

rotenhahn said:
Jim:
Could the knits have been replaced on all these jackets?

I'll be thinkin' not! WQe're getting way off the critical thinking path here :) ...

Getting back on the critical thinking path ;) we'd have to conclude that a single N-2A with green knits of unknown origin is distinguishable from multiple examples from two contracts known to have been produced with the variant knits in question--which, by the way, are not necessarily green but only look that way in some photos and during a certain stage of the fading process explained scientifically by Dr. H and borne out in the various photos in this thread. Atticus mentioned having an N-2A with cuffs that were unmistakably sage GI replacements, which again has no bearing on this discussion.
 

deeb7

Gone, but not forgotten.
watchmanjimg said:
I'd say so. We've now observed numerous other jackets produced under the contracts in question (two of which are in my collection) and they all exhibit the same unique texture and characteristic fading, albeit to varying degrees. We also have the specific reference to fading knits in Full Gear.

I don't know if I've mentioned it, but Full Gear also notes fading knits with the Frauhauf N-3A ... interestingly it's also the last contract.
 

watchmanjimg

Well-Known Member
I don't recall your mentioning this, David, but I'm glad you did. Are any other such contracts specified in Full Gear? If so, please list them so we'll know what to look for in the future.
 

deeb7

Gone, but not forgotten.
watchmanjimg said:
Are any other such contracts specified in Full Gear? If so, please list them so we'll know what to look for in the future.

No, that seems to be it ....

  • B-15C AF33(038) 30047 ALBERT TURNER & CO. INC.
    L-2A AF33(038) 29759 SUPERIOR TOGS CORP.
    N-3A AF 33(038) 30082 FRAUHAUF SW GARMENT CO.

Each contract is the last of its type in blue nylon, and the contracts all seem to have been awarded around the same time.
 

Atticus

Well-Known Member
spookyeyes002.jpg


spookyeyes001.jpg


JackiesTesters064-1.jpg


Green cuff knits on a N-2A. Waist band is blue, but has clearly been replaced.

David, didn't you once tell me this was the last N-2A contract?

AF
 

Tim P

Well-Known Member
I'd love a definitive answer about this, especially as the owner of a buzz togs. If those cuffs are not replacement then that does help.
 

deeb7

Gone, but not forgotten.
Atticus said:
David, didn't you once tell me this was the last N-2A contract?

I don't think so, Geoff, it's FY 1951 ... the last N-2A contract is FY 1952, AF33(038) 30042 C H MASLAND & SONS.
 

Atticus

Well-Known Member
deeb7 said:
Atticus said:
David, didn't you once tell me this was the last N-2A contract?

I don't think so, Jeff, it's FY 1951 ... the last N-2A contract is FY 1952, AF33(038) 30042 C H MASLAND & SONS.
OK. Thanks, David. I was just wondering if I had another piece of the puzzle here.

AF
 

watchmanjimg

Well-Known Member
Tim P said:
I'd love a definitive answer about this, especially as the owner of a buzz togs. If those cuffs are not replacement then that does help.

Atticus said:
As I've posted before, my N-2A came to me with old, sage knits. They were clearly put there when the original blue knits wore out...and I'm almost positive they were put there when the jacket was still in service.

AF


We already know Geoff's cuffs are replacements, but how many more original jackets would you need to see to consider this matter closed? It's been documented in Full Gear that certain knits were known to fade, we've seen numerous photos showing the varying stages of fade on actual jackets, and those of us who own examples from these contracts have indicated that their knits are made of a material other than standard wool.

Focusing on the Buzz jackets in connection with this thread does you no good. Which original Superior Togs L-2A came with a Crown main zipper? :lol:
 
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