John Lever
Moderator
Not bad. Finding a nice B1 or B2 is my problem !
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What is the limit on the price of a repro ?
- Thread starter John Lever
- Start date
I agree with Simon and Jeff here. The prices of wearable originals have fallen significantly recently. For example an ultra no name Doniger in a size 48 sold tonight for just over £400! The goatskin looked to be robust and someone got a bargain! I don't think the fact that hefty import charges were added to this auction helped at all. This is a practice which is becoming more prevalent of late and deters foreign buyers, not just because of the additional outlay, but because they may not recoup this cost if they returned the jacket.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281358347787? ... 1423.l2649
Silver Surfer
Well-Known Member
amen, simon. i prefer wearing my originals. aint nothing like it, no matter who makes em these days. however, when its raining like hell, or my wife wants me to show up at one of her affairs [documentary people have a social life], not looking like a reprobate, im happy to don a repro. ditto long car drives, as seat belts put a stress on originals. suppose that if i live an additional 65 years, my repros will look like the wwll a-2 jacs, and possibly be collectible, but, im not counting on it. got an original in good shape? wear it. thats what they were meant for.
ButteMT61
Well-Known Member
I'd have to wonder if the guys that got these assigned them in WWII would think not wearing them is ridiculous? I mean, sans jackets that are in the aforementioned "museum" or historically important categories, I'd wager those guys would say wear the hell out of 'em.
I saw a nice 48 A-2 today go for a hair over $700. Pretty damn good!
I saw a nice 48 A-2 today go for a hair over $700. Pretty damn good!
ausreenactor
Well-Known Member
ButteMT61 said:
I have a new as issued, never worn, 2011 dated Australian Army pilot's jacket. I am keeping it for 40 years at least. I reckon in that time it might be worth what the Government paid for it! :lol:
galvestonokie
Active Member
very interesting thread. after purchasing a few repros (no need to name the makers), i just spent the time trying to find vintage jackets. A-2 never were comfortable, so i concentrated on the G-1 family. the problem is that it takes time to find what you want, and my guess is that few of us are very patient (certainly not me) when it comes to finding a jacket.
i was/am a bit hard to fit but have found a number of original USN jackets:
Flying Equipment Co. size 48, VGC (probably not issued, but rather sold as private purchase in PX);
Gordon & Ferguson M422A, size 48. beautiful, mint condition, but a bit too large on me;
California Sportswear (AER) size 46. beautiful, mint condition, will replace the zipper, also a bit large;
Ralph Edwards 7823B (WEP) size 46. very good condition.
it took me about 8 years to find these jackets. as is recall, all cost considerably less than some of the new repros quoted in this thread. i believe this is the problem. it takes time, and a little luck, to find an original flight jacket in great or mint condition. and, IMHO, there is nothing like wearing a jacket that has been broken in properly, over time, just by being worn. like butter...
but, after seeing quite a few used and abused naval services jackets (seems like too many people chose to paint the garage white wearing these jackets), i think it is better to wear them. the jackets mentioned above will continue to age much better, IMHO, if they are regularly worn, moved around, exposed to air, sunlight, etc. i have little doubt that these jackets, if given proper care, will definitely outlive me.
i'm just saying...
i was/am a bit hard to fit but have found a number of original USN jackets:
Flying Equipment Co. size 48, VGC (probably not issued, but rather sold as private purchase in PX);
Gordon & Ferguson M422A, size 48. beautiful, mint condition, but a bit too large on me;
California Sportswear (AER) size 46. beautiful, mint condition, will replace the zipper, also a bit large;
Ralph Edwards 7823B (WEP) size 46. very good condition.
it took me about 8 years to find these jackets. as is recall, all cost considerably less than some of the new repros quoted in this thread. i believe this is the problem. it takes time, and a little luck, to find an original flight jacket in great or mint condition. and, IMHO, there is nothing like wearing a jacket that has been broken in properly, over time, just by being worn. like butter...
but, after seeing quite a few used and abused naval services jackets (seems like too many people chose to paint the garage white wearing these jackets), i think it is better to wear them. the jackets mentioned above will continue to age much better, IMHO, if they are regularly worn, moved around, exposed to air, sunlight, etc. i have little doubt that these jackets, if given proper care, will definitely outlive me.
i'm just saying...
galvestonokie
Active Member
John Lever
Moderator
I am not sure if an original is intrinsically worth more than a reproduction. The high end jackets on offer are made from materials of equal quality and often superior craftsmanship. I can see why a fake Rembrandt is not as valuable as the original but these are utility items not works of art. If two items are identical but one is worn and dirty but just a few decades old does it make it more valuable ? I can see that some jackets have historical interest and were worn by known veterans, but most do not have this distinction.
Just thought provoking. (I hope)
Just thought provoking. (I hope)
buzzthetower
Administrator
Gents,
As someone who makes and sells repros, here's what I think the market likes. First of all, this discussion board is rather packed with people who have bought originals, know originals, or at least know how to study originals. Many of us have bought and sold originals and reproductions. We know how to find them, how to see if they work for us or not, and how to sell them on if we don't like what we'd gotten.
On the other hand, there are many people who love WWII flight gear, especially jackets, but more for how good they look, rather than their historical value. And there are many people who have plenty of money. Buying a $1,500 jacket isn't a big deal to them. It is a big deal to scour eBay, find 5-10 jackets that may fit, and hope that they're both clean enough to wear socially, and solid enough hat parts won't start to fail. But those jackets that didn't quite work must be sold off. As it is, very few people measure jackets correctly, so a jacket with a 24" pit to pit is often listed as 22" pit to pit. That can make all kinds of trouble in a sale.
Personally, I've had some original zippers on vintage jackets break that would have broken at some point anyway, back in the days when I was collecting originals. Cuffs can be tatters, and the worst of the worst is handing off an A-2 to a waiter who hangs up customers coats, and for the A-2 to have 8" of ripped and stained lining along the collar edge. "Shall I lay your jacket down somewhere in the closet?" It's not particularly fun to explain why you wear items in that condition.
One time I had a former police officer, whom I had just met, describe how he caught someone he was chasing. He grabbed my vintage Cable Raincoat A-2, which was made with aniline dye, just below the collar, and said "I grabbed him like this, and shook the guy really good!" - at which I was mortified to see that his fingernails had put very obvious scratch marks on the jacket. Another incident in that jacket was a friends dog and myself in the back seat of a car. The dog kept wanting to put paws on the jacket. It was very disappointing to be stuck in that situation, much less to explain why.
I don't like to get myself in any weird situations wearing original jackets. But things happen. I once had a mint, and I mean out of the box mint Werber Sportswear G-1, and after wearing it about ten times, I noticed that the mouton was getting quite matted and curled around my neck. So much for a mint jacket. Another M-445A that I had was close to mint, but after 6 months of light use, I noticed that the label was missing about 20% of the text thread. Agh!
To some, these problems are no big deal. And I understand. But, to others, if you can get an exact copy of something from the era, in your size (huge deal), that fits just right, and looks just like it came from the factory without all the oddball flaws that originals have. the price to pay isn't all that much. You can spend $700-$1,500 on several original A-2s, trying to find one that fits right, or you can get one jacket that is new, looks right, and is socially presentable with no issues at all on the first try. If you have money, and believe me, plenty of people do whom would never post on a forum, then why not?
Most of my customers are in the US, and only a few are from the far East. A good portion are from Europe, too, but most are US. Most of them don't post on forums. Only about one in 20 of the jackets I make get mentioned on forums. These others are mostly quiet fellows who like the look of WWII gear, and the jackets have the advantage of being great with any format of clothing. I guess what I'm saying is that for those who post on the forum, it may not be an even representation of those who buy jackets.
Hope that helps!
John
As someone who makes and sells repros, here's what I think the market likes. First of all, this discussion board is rather packed with people who have bought originals, know originals, or at least know how to study originals. Many of us have bought and sold originals and reproductions. We know how to find them, how to see if they work for us or not, and how to sell them on if we don't like what we'd gotten.
On the other hand, there are many people who love WWII flight gear, especially jackets, but more for how good they look, rather than their historical value. And there are many people who have plenty of money. Buying a $1,500 jacket isn't a big deal to them. It is a big deal to scour eBay, find 5-10 jackets that may fit, and hope that they're both clean enough to wear socially, and solid enough hat parts won't start to fail. But those jackets that didn't quite work must be sold off. As it is, very few people measure jackets correctly, so a jacket with a 24" pit to pit is often listed as 22" pit to pit. That can make all kinds of trouble in a sale.
Personally, I've had some original zippers on vintage jackets break that would have broken at some point anyway, back in the days when I was collecting originals. Cuffs can be tatters, and the worst of the worst is handing off an A-2 to a waiter who hangs up customers coats, and for the A-2 to have 8" of ripped and stained lining along the collar edge. "Shall I lay your jacket down somewhere in the closet?" It's not particularly fun to explain why you wear items in that condition.
One time I had a former police officer, whom I had just met, describe how he caught someone he was chasing. He grabbed my vintage Cable Raincoat A-2, which was made with aniline dye, just below the collar, and said "I grabbed him like this, and shook the guy really good!" - at which I was mortified to see that his fingernails had put very obvious scratch marks on the jacket. Another incident in that jacket was a friends dog and myself in the back seat of a car. The dog kept wanting to put paws on the jacket. It was very disappointing to be stuck in that situation, much less to explain why.
I don't like to get myself in any weird situations wearing original jackets. But things happen. I once had a mint, and I mean out of the box mint Werber Sportswear G-1, and after wearing it about ten times, I noticed that the mouton was getting quite matted and curled around my neck. So much for a mint jacket. Another M-445A that I had was close to mint, but after 6 months of light use, I noticed that the label was missing about 20% of the text thread. Agh!
To some, these problems are no big deal. And I understand. But, to others, if you can get an exact copy of something from the era, in your size (huge deal), that fits just right, and looks just like it came from the factory without all the oddball flaws that originals have. the price to pay isn't all that much. You can spend $700-$1,500 on several original A-2s, trying to find one that fits right, or you can get one jacket that is new, looks right, and is socially presentable with no issues at all on the first try. If you have money, and believe me, plenty of people do whom would never post on a forum, then why not?
Most of my customers are in the US, and only a few are from the far East. A good portion are from Europe, too, but most are US. Most of them don't post on forums. Only about one in 20 of the jackets I make get mentioned on forums. These others are mostly quiet fellows who like the look of WWII gear, and the jackets have the advantage of being great with any format of clothing. I guess what I'm saying is that for those who post on the forum, it may not be an even representation of those who buy jackets.
Hope that helps!
John
a2jacketpatches
Active Member
Well said John, I believe this to be true with multiple discussions on this forum. We here on this forum are but a tiny fraction of what actually goes on in the world. Many times the topic of to patch or not to patch comes up, and if I were to count on the opinions here I'd be out of business long ago. On the other hand, multiples of every maker known to man have passed through my shop or mentioned in inquiries for patches. Got a brand spankin new GW waiting for paint right now. Just to throw it out there, what would be the price limit on repro patches or artwork for a repro jacket? Often by far exceeds the cost of the jacket. But most guys here seem to be opposed to the decorating of an expensive repro. Interesting enough to see how far all friends here would go purchasing reproduction items, but personally, I'm sure glad it's only a small percentage of the actual consumers.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I fully agree.
Originals are nice, but many drawbacks. I keep some for the collection and to wear occasionally, but I also like the fun of breaking in a nice repro.
Originals are nice, but many drawbacks. I keep some for the collection and to wear occasionally, but I also like the fun of breaking in a nice repro.
Andrew
Well-Known Member
Excellent post /\ and the primary reasons I wear repros despite owning several fitting originals. I acquired those primarily due to interest in vintage flying gear but I did also want to be able to wear them if I wanted, but have found that my repros (which happen to be GW's) just cover so many more of the limited opportunities I have to grab a jacket but still sense that WWII era heritage.buzzthetower said:
Ken at Aero Leather
Well-Known Member
The $5500 that an Aero Green (Horween) Horsehide Daytona Bike jacket was sold by the JayKos store in Grenwich Village must be getting close the record for a "repro".
I believe the MRP for Nigel Cabourn's Aero made "RAF Coast Command" Hybrid was £3900...whether he sold any at that price or not I couldn't say
I believe the MRP for Nigel Cabourn's Aero made "RAF Coast Command" Hybrid was £3900...whether he sold any at that price or not I couldn't say
Ken at Aero Leather
Well-Known Member
Otter said:
I agree 100%, it was a real minger, if I'd been at Aero at the time it wouldn't have seen the light of day.
The green horse bike jacket, on the other hand looked incredible
FlyingYankee
Active Member
for me it's the price of a Goodwear ,You can spend lots of money and still not have a jacket that fits.If you buy something buy it once! When I first wanted a flight jacket I went with an overseas company. I sent my measurements in and at least 7 e-mails stating the jacket had to have at least 26.5 sleeves they were ignored. I should have cancelled the order when my e-mails were not responded to. I got a jacket that did not fit and had 25.5 sleeves,When I complained I was told I did not know how to measure a jacket, well maybe not but I damn well know That jacket was not my size and my measurements were not taken into account.Bottom line is when you try to save money you end up losing money. I would have saved quite a bit by spending 1550 from the start. Just not possible or probable to find an original A-2 in a size 46 with 27" sleeves. Not worth my time when I can get a brand new one exactly like it came from the factory for 1600. My time is now spent doing my job instead of spinning my wheels.
