Rust knits B10's - argument over?

[Smithy]

Allow me to elaborate on the red MA-1. Let's say it is topic related inasmuch that I prefer to have artistic liberty supported by facts if certain claims are made.

This pic can be found at one of our esteemed members, hardly ever here anymore I believe. I feel ashamed that I can't momentarily recall his name.
https://jetpilotoverseas.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/4564050200_99f6a5e21a_b.jpg

4564050200_99f6a5e21a_b by R. Bezoen, on Flickr
br13860-ra2 by R. Bezoen, on Flickr

The first picture shows the very same Northrop Scorpion at, I claim, the very same spot of the colour picture, pictures being taken at the same day, likely within hours. Please notice that in both pictures, the nose wheel is turned slightly into a left turn. There are more clues though.

It seems to me that in both pictures, no pencil pocket is present on the sleeve.
Furthermore, it appears to me that the cloth type doesn't have the look from nylon. Nylon jackets on b&w photos usually have a slight sheen over them, especially on folds and creases. In the b&w picture, it has a matte cloth type appearance, rather hinting at being not nylon as used for the MA-1.
My claim is that these pictures do not prove the existence of red nylon MA-1 's.

Taking things back on topic, I think that Stanier is right about being the L2A legitimately being reproduced by BR with OD knits.

Crikey don't show that to Charles at HPA, he'll have a bloody aneurysm! That once again seems to show a bit of artistic licence taken by our mates at BR. Well called Rutger.

And BR certainly can make L-2As with green/olive knits as they do exist, I just don't like how they state in their marketing flannel that they rolled off the production line that way without any supporting documentation or concrete evidence.

 

[ButteMT61]

Well, thank for killing my desire for that red MA-1 guys
I don't care about it as the boss said no. But I'm also not going to quibble about it as I don't know but what I see here and elsewhere...
Still not proof either way for my eyes, but we each have our own tolerance for evidence...

 

[Smithy]

I just blew up the colour photo of these red Northrop jackets and I think Rutger is right. The magnified image does not show any trace of a cigarette pocket which would be seen on an MA-1 and the fabric doesn't overly look like nylon. MA-1 s are not my thing so I hope someone far more knowledgeable than myself can jump in and give a more comprehensive view and opinion but what the blown up image and that black and white image that Rutger seem to show is not a MA-1 and not what BR have been saying is their facsimile of this jacket. Looks a bit porkie pies to me.

 

[Cocker]

I have to agree with Rutger. The fabric of the jackets is indeed lacking that nylon shine you can see on other pictures, and no cigarette pocket.

So DD is getting flack because he may not have used a different tread for the modded collar, not the right kind of nylon, not the mod label sewn over an original one, or the correct interlining on his Mod B-15, but BR is still praised for their high quality, top level down to the stitch count repros?! Oh well, whatever... *Arms thrown in the air in despair*

 

[stanier]

I’ve found another pic of blue nylon L2-a and olive knits.

 

[Smithy]

I have to agree with Rutger. The fabric of the jackets is indeed lacking that nylon shine you can see on other pictures, and no cigarette pocket.

So DD is getting flack because he may not have used a different tread for the modded collar, not the right kind of nylon, not the mod label sewn over an original one, or the correct interlining on his Mod B-15, but BR is still praised for their high quality, top level down to the stitch count repros?! Oh well, whatever... *Arms thrown in the air in despair*

Cocker, if you mention this Northrop thing to Charles over at the hat place just be prepared for a major meltdown, honestly I think he'll flip his wig if you bring this up after his blurb about how BR fastidiously copied an actual jacket.

 

[stanier]

No interest in red jackets but Rutger seems more than right on that one to me.

Cheers

 

[dmar836]

For the record I love the look of the olive knits on blue nylon. My only contention is the authority with which these other average guys claim it's an original variant because they can yell louder than you. I also don't think there is anything wrong with DDs version. I think the fact that he is allied with GW is why he is targeted over there. Remember ELC did "long" sizing in A-2s and neither they nor DD claimed their lengthened jackets were original cut. For them to criticize DD for making and admitting his pattern is longer while they support and argue about knit variants being original with zero evidence shows why they have to wear hats!
As for the MA-1s. I think it's another issue of saturation and if corrected we would see the missiles, jackets, etc are orange and the jackets are just turned sage. That's the kind of stuff I think we need notice. If not, one could layer the two earlier P-47 photos and Photoshop the "olive-knitted" photographer with the corrected P-47 and confuse us all for life.

 

[Cocker]

Cocker, if you mention this Northrop thing to Charles over at the hat place just be prepared for a major meltdown, honestly I think he'll flip his wig if you bring this up after his blurb about how BR fastidiously copied an actual jacket.

Actually, that's pretty tempting...

Envoyé de mon SM-G950F en utilisant Tapatalk

 

[stanier]

Sorry Dave, if you’re referring to me in your first few lines. I’m not trying to yell or claim anything to do with originality, Buzz or DD.

I’m just seeing more and more pics now I’m looking of blue L2-a’s with olive knits and trying to understand.

Actually had an interesting day learning about the Korean War and seen lots of interesting jacket and other pics.

Just contributing and discussing.

Cheers

Chris

 

[ButteMT61]

The lack of sheen I figgered was because they maybe used that other material as seen on the Apollo jackets that DD posted in his thread - blue and yellow/gold. Even the way the fabric drapes, etc. looks way less stiff than the BR copy.
BTW, if they indeed have a Northrop red MA-1, show us. I'm now more than ever curious about this jacket.

 

[Monsoon]

Actually, that's pretty tempting...

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Well, BR might have an actual red Northrop MA-1 that they copied. Who knows? I'd sure like to see it.

And ButteMT61, spring for a Red MA-1. I did.

 

[ButteMT61]

Well, BR might have an actual red Northrop MA-1 that they copied. Who knows? I'd sure like to see it.

And ButteMT61, spring for a Red MA-1. I did.

YOU get it yet? I'm interested in the sizing...HPA rep said I could likely use the XXL, which in my BR research, means a 44. I'm a 48. I know nylon jackets can fe funky to size, so I'm curious...

 

[johnwayne]

Having kicked this thread off I've found everything that's followed quite absorbing and interesting particularly the varying tangents you've all gone down with regard to whether or not elements of jacket productions were original or field repairs and ultimately I guess who really knows? Much of what's been suggested therefore purely assumption/suggestion but with regard to knits in particular if I wanted to become the next JC, DD or GE, I would definitely attempt to make a faithful repro in every respect. Why therefore should BR say, produce something that is faithful in every respect apart from the colour of the knits? How did they know that rust knits might appeal more than say a brown a la A2 type? I find it hard to believe they thought they might sell loads more jackets, surely as proved by this discussion such derivation has limited appeal!! Re jacket length and sizing for the modern man, don't ELC still make a 'slender' A2? Was that debated as much? As has been said by others though rust knits IMO do look cool and no, I'm not the next JC, DD or GE!!!

 

[Cocker]

Well, BR do have faithful repros, that is a fact. Once there, why not go for something a bit more original ? As I said on TFL, the red knits are somewhat credible, and they do make the jacket stand out amongst the maze of "regular" B-10s. So that's a win-win situation.

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[Monsoon]

YOU get it yet? I'm interested in the sizing...HPA rep said I could likely use the XXL, which in my BR research, means a 44. I'm a 48. I know nylon jackets can fe funky to size, so I'm curious...

Well, I have a BR B-15 Mod that is a size 44 and fits great, and the Red MA-1 is an XXL and it fits great too.

 

[SuinBruin]

There's nothing wrong with a B-10 with red knits, or an L-2A with green knits, or an L-2A that's longer in the torso than the original government spec, or a red MA-1. If someone likes it and wants to wear it, more power to him. The only issue is people making claims about historic fact and "authenticity" that they can't or won't back up. Between ego and profit motive folks wind up making positive assertions of fact that are, at best, dubious.

Whether you own it or are selling it, don't say that something is a perfect reproduction of an original garment without some actual evidence supporting your claim.

We have strong evidence that L-2As with green knits existed, but no proof that they were factory installed. We have very weak evidence of B-10s with red knits (HPA guy says he saw one once years ago), and no proof that they were factory installed. Thanks to this thread we know that there is as of yet no evidence for the existence of a red MA-1 (at least not one to the specs for an issued MA-1).

No repro maker is perfect or above reasonable critique, including forum favorites GW and DD. But HPA and the other yahoos at the hat place have set up this ludicrous straw man standard of perfect authenticity for BR, which is utter nonsense. BR doesn't only make 100% perfectly accurate reproductions, and DD making nylon jackets that are slightly longer than originals and lacking the shoulder roundel is not a fraud on the jacket-buying public.

 

[ButteMT61]

Well, I have a BR B-15 Mod that is a size 44 and fits great, and the Red MA-1 is an XXL and it fits great too.

So what size do you wear normally?
That's my conundrum.

 

[Monsoon]

So what size do you wear normally?
That's my conundrum.

Usually around a 46 or 48. Depends on the jacket.

I have a DD that's a 48, a GW that's a 46. My BR B-15 and B-10 are both 44. The BR Red MA-1 is an XXL. And my Eastman Perry B-3 is a 46.

I think they all fit great. If I were to get another BR B-10, I'd probably get a 46, just because. And yes, my B-10 has red knits.

 

[Monsoon]

....DD making nylon jackets that are slightly longer than originals and lacking the shoulder roundel is not a fraud on the jacket-buying public.

I agree. It's not like he's touting them as perfect repros, he comes out and says they are longer.