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Rare blue B-15C with olive wrist knits
- Thread starter Weasel_Loader
- Start date
watchmanjimg
Well-Known Member
asiamiles said:
I never claimed there was any turning green evident in these knits, nor was there on some of the other jackets we've talked about here. However, you make a valid point regarding the effect of light and camera flash on the apparent color of knits in photos--though this is lost on those who desperately cling to the notion that a new Air Force would establish its distinct identity via jackets assembled with recycled knits. Clearly this phenomenon occurs in varying degrees from jacket to jacket. Some are observed with greenish knits, some purplish/reddish, some are in between.
What's most significant in my view is the absence of mothing to the knits of such a well-worn jacket, which tells us they're not wool and thus were not conventional OD knits dyed blue. I have plenty of 50-year-old jackets with original wool knits and none exhibit fading, so I'm not sure I follow you there. Do you find that original GI wool knits tend to fade? I've not seen this and I must own at least 50 original nylon jackets.
If they are synthetic then may be more susceptible to fade and colour shift, I agree.
On the dyed knits theory, I also agree its dubious, and doubt it's something the Airforce would ask for. It may be something though that a contractor might do if they had a quantity of knits left from a previous contract. Only wool knits would qualify easily. Still not too likely though, but is it impossible? Obviously it's just a theory.
On the dyed knits theory, I also agree its dubious, and doubt it's something the Airforce would ask for. It may be something though that a contractor might do if they had a quantity of knits left from a previous contract. Only wool knits would qualify easily. Still not too likely though, but is it impossible? Obviously it's just a theory.
watchmanjimg
Well-Known Member
RCSignals said:
As far as I can tell it's not too common, and I've neither seen nor heard of this outside of the blue jackets. The Superior Togs L-2A and Albert Turner B-15C discussed in this thread are known examples of contracts using the oddball knits, but I'm unaware of any others. I've never seen a Pritzker B-15C with these knits, nor an N-2A by any maker. I'd also point out that the knits don't necessarily appear to be synthetic as they have a cottony texture. They could be a cotton blend, or possibly another plant-based fiber.
watchmanjimg
Well-Known Member
RCSignals said:
Not impossible of course, but which previous contract would they be left over from? I have yet to see a B-10, B-15, L-2, or other OD jacket with other than wool knits. Then there's the question of quality control in an age when those words actually meant something. Would the dyed knits have passed muster? If I were to theorize, I'd say the knits in question could have been produced in hopes of eliminating the possibility of moth damage, but their poor colorfastness prevented widespread adoption.
watchmanjimg
Well-Known Member
asiamiles said:
I'd say so. We've now observed numerous other jackets produced under the contracts in question (two of which are in my collection) and they all exhibit the same unique texture and characteristic fading, albeit to varying degrees. We also have the specific reference to fading knits in Full Gear. Could the knits have been replaced on all these jackets? As this type of knit seems impervious to moths there would be no reason to replace them other than damage from extended use, which is not the case in this particular example.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Jim:
As I said before- I had an N2-A with green knits. They were made of that cottony seeming material but I'm not 100% sure they still weren't wool. I've seen wool that felt like cotton and vice versa...
As I said before- I had an N2-A with green knits. They were made of that cottony seeming material but I'm not 100% sure they still weren't wool. I've seen wool that felt like cotton and vice versa...
A
Anonymous
Guest
Jim:
I'll be thinkin' not! WQe're getting way off the critical thinking path here
...
I'll be thinkin' not! WQe're getting way off the critical thinking path here
...
watchmanjimg
Well-Known Member
rotenhahn said:
As the former owner of the Albert Turner B-15C featured in JC's CD-ROM you certainly had a chance to examine this type of knit firsthand, and you previously indicated noticing the difference. In my opinion there's no way of confusing them with standard wool knits, but of course your mileage may vary. Are you sure your N-2A had its original knits? That's an entirely different question than the one Miles asked earlier tonight, and which you apparently made light of here (I assume you understood that my quote was in response to his question as to whether Bebel's B-15C had replacement knits):
rotenhahn said:Jim:
I'll be thinkin' not! WQe're getting way off the critical thinking path here
Getting back on the critical thinking path
we'd have to conclude that a single N-2A with green knits of unknown origin is distinguishable from multiple examples from two contracts known to have been produced with the variant knits in question--which, by the way, are not necessarily green but only look that way in some photos and during a certain stage of the fading process explained scientifically by Dr. H and borne out in the various photos in this thread. Atticus mentioned having an N-2A with cuffs that were unmistakably sage GI replacements, which again has no bearing on this discussion.
watchmanjimg
Well-Known Member
I don't recall your mentioning this, David, but I'm glad you did. Are any other such contracts specified in Full Gear? If so, please list them so we'll know what to look for in the future.
watchmanjimg said:
No, that seems to be it ....
- B-15C AF33(038) 30047 ALBERT TURNER & CO. INC.
L-2A AF33(038) 29759 SUPERIOR TOGS CORP.
N-3A AF 33(038) 30082 FRAUHAUF SW GARMENT CO.
Each contract is the last of its type in blue nylon, and the contracts all seem to have been awarded around the same time.
watchmanjimg
Well-Known Member
Tim P said:
Atticus said:
We already know Geoff's cuffs are replacements, but how many more original jackets would you need to see to consider this matter closed? It's been documented in Full Gear that certain knits were known to fade, we've seen numerous photos showing the varying stages of fade on actual jackets, and those of us who own examples from these contracts have indicated that their knits are made of a material other than standard wool.
Focusing on the Buzz jackets in connection with this thread does you no good. Which original Superior Togs L-2A came with a Crown main zipper? :lol:
