Rare blue B-15C with olive wrist knits

[Anonymous]

The PM increased my confidence in Dr. H's expertise but not in his theory as it applies to the green knits on blue flight jackets. I think it is pretty obvious that in this case (B-15Cs with green knits) the Chapman Theory is probably correct- some jacket makers were supplied with B-15B or L-2 knits during the change to Air Force Blue and either dyed them quit and dirty with a cheap RIT type dye or not at all. I agree with Dr. H that oxidation and UV and sweat can help change the colors on jacket parts but my experience has been that generally the knits and dyeing in general on theses jackets is very good- not as shaky as he implies in his missive. I stick by my response. Experts will often speculate about stuff about which they know not and their expertise will carry the day without proof. The knits on the flight jackets in this discussion were made of wool so his whole nylon/cotton explanation is moot. Second, his statement that the dyes in the 40s and 50s wouldn't have particularly colorfast is not true in general. Most flight jackets from that time have knits which retain good color- OD,blue and sage- even after dry cleaning and long use- check out your copy of "Suit Up" if you don't believe me. All of this reminds me a bit of the speculation by Stuey Clurman or Burt Avedon in "Hell Bent For Leather" that russet in original A-2s was a color which resulted from long exposure to sunlight- "oxidation turned the seal to russet" or some such nonsense. Experts can be fallible... needle's still over...

 

[Anonymous]

generally the knits and dyeing in general on theses jackets

Sorry about the poor English...

 

[Dr H]

No problem Jeff, thanks for your PM We've agreed to agree in some areas and differ in others (I've set you a experimental test at UC on UV exposure ) .

I'm not holding a candle for the B-15C fading theory - in my view it's usually the simple explanation (i.e. somebody used up knits that were surplus rather than open a new box, or similar, regardless of how daft the result). I've not handled these jackets so can't comment authoritatively on the examples that you have, but Miles' collar knit looks like a prime case of this kind of fading behaviour to me.

Nevertheless, the UV stability (i.e. colourfastness in my definition) is generally poorer in early/mid 20th century textiles than say 1970s or later. These days in performance textiles they're putting nanoparticles, etc. to improve all sorts of features including resistance to fade.

Incidentally, my recently sold Perry (23377 - see comparison of two Perry A-2s thread) has the most russet knits/waistband that I have ever seen on just about any A-2. Looks beautiful, but I'm not convinced they came out of the factory in Newburgh red as a one off...

No further attempts to shift your needle - perhaps if I can find the time to do an experiment of two...

Cheers

Ian

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe the needle's moving- but one more thing- Miles' collar example is an on new Japanese repro presumably dyed with your 1970s forward superior dyes! What gives? I think the new better dyes are probably just as iffy as old dyes- they are better mostly because they have to dye artificial modern crap! I think the dyes used in 1940-1970 are proven very good by the many great examples we still have today!

 

[Dr H]

Maybe the needle's moving- but one more thing- Miles' collar example is an on new Japanese repro presumably dyed with your 1970s forward superior dyes! What gives? I think the new better dyes are probably just as iffy as old dyes- they are better mostly because they have to dye artificial modern crap! I think the dyes used in 1940-1970 are proven very good by the many great examples we still have today!

Touche!
But it assumes that the modern gear is using top quality dyes, etc.
Can't always guarantee that of course whatever the price tag!

 

[Anonymous]

Dr. H:

Can't always guarantee that of course whatever the price tag!

Boy you aren't just whistling Dixie brother! (You were envisioning old Eastman knits- right? )

 

[Dr H]

Have to say that in my experience the difference in quality between my A-1 knits bears that out...
Agreed on something at last then Jeff :lol:

 

[watchmanjimg]

Funny that actual examples don't seem to back much of this up!

Jeff, I've always liked and gotten along with you despite your controversial record here, so what I'm about to say should be taken only in the spirit of friendly discussion. Based on my direct experience and observations (everyone listen closely here), THE KNITS ON THE SUPERIOR TOGS L-2A AND ALBERT TURNER B-15C JACKETS IN QUESTION WERE NOT MADE OF THE TYPICAL WOOL SEEN IN EVERY OTHER NYLON JACKET PRODUCED PURSUANT TO U.S. GOVERNMENT SPECIFICATIONS! For some reason none of you seem to have noticed this, or at least no one has said so. However, the fact remains and accordingly the notion that the fade-prone knits were the standard OD wool type dyed blue is unsupported, as are your attempts to refute Dr. H's scientific explanation of the phenomenon as to these knits.

How many original Superior Togs L-2As and Albert Turner B-15Cs have you, or anyone else here, handled in person? This whole discussion began around an example of each, and I weighed in with photos of my jackets in two different stages of fade. The fact that I own only two such jackets does not make me the world's foremost authority, but don't you find it strangely coincidental that my observations coincide with both the scientific explanation and the other photos presented in this thread? Here's another example owned by USMC GAU-21. The photos are of sufficient quality to observe the fading of the knits as well as the obvious pilling to the collar and waistband (click on the link below for larger photos):

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6898&p=63839#p63839

Have you ever seen wool knits do this? Sure, you can attempt to explain this by claiming the knits were replaced--but were the same replacements used in both of my jackets as well as Dan's and Aviationetc's B-15C?

I think it is pretty obvious that in this case (B-15Cs with green knits) the Chapman Theory is probably correct- some jacket makers were supplied with B-15B or L-2 knits during the change to Air Force Blue and either dyed them quit and dirty with a cheap RIT type dye or not at all.

Earlier in this thread I was delighted to point out that John is a wizard in the area of leather jackets (I have two of his jackets and look forward to my next order), but I don't believe he has ever claimed or demonstrated more than a general interest in nylon jackets. He's not a "nylon nut" like some of us. JC's CD-ROM is an excellent photographic reference but not an in-depth treatise. Many of the jackets were provided by collectors for the sole purpose of being featured in the piece and do not belong to JC himself, so I don't know how much of an opportunity he had to inspect them once the photographs were taken. Ironically, my review of Internet photos in connection with this thread turned up the very Albert Turner B-15C featured on JC's CD-ROM:

While the knits on this particular jacket exhibits no apparent fading, those of you who own JC's CD-ROM will note that the closeup photos reveal pilling and a suspicious absence of mothing--just like all the other originals we've been discussing here. This further reinforces what I've been arguing all along. The knits used on these contracts were not standard wool and therefore were not overdyed L-2 or B-15B knits.

Is your needle moving now? :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

You may be right- who knows? My point was that dyeing in the 1950s (and the decades before and after) was not as iffy as is implied by our resident expert. Your theory is actually pretty good- I too have seen knits that seemed cottony instead of wooly. The B-15C you posted was owned by me- John and I both used to be "nylon nuts". The most glaring example of green knits I saw myself was an N-2A with green knits- I don't see UV or sweat making it as green and overall as the knits were- it looked like cheap dye over green knits washed out with dry-cleaning fluid was the explanation. Maybe we're all right- I don't see what the argument is exactly...

 

[Dr H]

Hurray, we're all resident experts

 

[watchmanjimg]

You may be right- who knows? My point was that dyeing in the 1950s (and the decades before and after) was not as iffy as is implied by our resident expert. Your theory is actually pretty good- I too have seen knits that seemed cottony instead of wooly. The B-15C you posted was owned by me- John and I both used to be "nylon nuts". The most glaring example of green knits I saw myself was an N-2A with green knits- I don't see UV or sweat making it as green and overall as the knits were- it looked like cheap dye over green knits washed out with dry-cleaning fluid was the explanation. Maybe we're all right- I don't see what the argument is exactly...

At this point there's no argument at all. I was primarily concerned with making sure the atypical knits were recognized as the culprit and distinguished from the standard wool type, at least as to these two contracts. I guess now we can all understand why I'm so skeptical of the dyed-OD-wool-knit theory, but if dyed wool knits were ever used on blue jackets, clearly they're not the ones documented to be subject to fading and depicted in the photographs in question here. I have no theory one way or another as to the N-2A you mentioned, but if it had wool knits we're talking about a totally different animal. The Masland N-2A I once owned had mild purplish fading to the nylon above the wool cuffs, but the cuffs themselves did not show any fading. I was advised by a Navy aviation vet that JP4 exposure could cause the nylon to fade but obviously in this instance the wool was more colorfast than nylon when this particular stimulus was introduced.

 

[RCSignals]

That's all very interesting on the knits and fading of those original jackets, but to me anyway the wrist knits on jacket in the auction that started this still doesn't much resemble them. The wrist knits are far more 'faded/colour changed' and the waist knit almost not faded at all. Couldn't it be that the auction jacket had it's wrist knits changed at some point to a 'cheaper' set?
I suppose it could also the waist knit may have been changed to a knew one, but why do it and not the wrist knits.
Not that it really matters I guess as none of us will be paying his price for that jacket.

 

[watchmanjimg]

That's all very interesting on the knits and fading of those original jackets, but to me anyway the wrist knits on jacket in the auction that started this still doesn't much resemble them. The wrist knits are far more 'faded/colour changed' and the waist knit almost not faded at all. Couldn't it be that the auction jacket had it's wrist knits changed at some point to a 'cheaper' set?
I suppose it could also the waist knit may have been changed to a knew one, but why do it and not the wrist knits.
Not that it really matters I guess as none of us will be paying his price for that jacket.

None of the examples shown seem to exhibit fading to the waist knit. Assuming the fading is caused by UV rays, the waistband is less likely to be exposed while flying. If it's perspiration, the waistband is less likely to contact the skin. As far as the jacket in the auction, Dr. H explained the phenomenon scientifically and the cuffs on this one simply reflect the final stage of the process. There's no reason to think the knits were changed as they're behaving exactly as we've come to expect from jackets produced under this contract.

And you're right. I doubt any of us would pay that exorbitant price. :shock:

 

[RCSignals]

to me the examples do show fading of the waist knit, at least much more than that auction jacket does.
I think some fading of the waist knit would be expected. It is not as if it never is exposed to UV.
There is just more extreme between the knits of the auction jacket.

 

[watchmanjimg]

to me the examples do show fading of the waist knit, at least much more than that auction jacket does.
I think some fading of the waist knit would be expected. It is not as if it never is exposed to UV.
There is just more extreme between the knits of the auction jacket.

Here's the relevant portion of Dr. H's analysis:

Well, pH, salinity, heat/warmth and UV (especially in the cuffs exposed to UV/ozone at altitude) would be ideal conditions to accelerate chemical reaction, especially oxidation.

The blue dyes will oxidise to produce more carbon-carbon double bonds making the dyes appear first green, then yellow and finally orange/red as they absorb at longer wavelengths.

As the dyes (like inks) are typically combinations of different coloured pigments as the more unstable are bleached by sunlight and lose colour then the colour of mixture in the knit will change...

Particularly older (cotton based) knits will also degrade thermally/oxidatively to make unsaturated chains (contributing to the yellowing).

 

[SuinBruin]

I love this forum. Eight pages on the coloration of nylon jacket knits and still going strong....

 

[RCSignals]

to me the examples do show fading of the waist knit, at least much more than that auction jacket does.
I think some fading of the waist knit would be expected. It is not as if it never is exposed to UV.
There is just more extreme between the knits of the auction jacket.

Here's the relevant portion of Dr. H's analysis:

Well, pH, salinity, heat/warmth and UV (especially in the cuffs exposed to UV/ozone at altitude) would be ideal conditions to accelerate chemical reaction, especially oxidation.

The blue dyes will oxidise to produce more carbon-carbon double bonds making the dyes appear first green, then yellow and finally orange/red as they absorb at longer wavelengths.

As the dyes (like inks) are typically combinations of different coloured pigments as the more unstable are bleached by sunlight and lose colour then the colour of mixture in the knit will change...

Particularly older (cotton based) knits will also degrade thermally/oxidatively to make unsaturated chains (contributing to the yellowing).

Yes I read that. Whoever wore the auction jacket must have had extra sweaty wrists. :lol:

 

[RCSignals]

the answer to everything is in this line, of course.

AS WORN BY MARILYN MONROE DURING A USO VISIT!! A DOLL WAS MODELED AFTER HER USO VISIT!

 

[watchmanjimg]

Forum member Bebel just listed this Albert Turner B-15C for sale here:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11218

Note the excellent condition of the knits despite the obviously well-used shell and collar, although some fading of the cuffs is apparent. This is further evidence of the variant knit material we discussed earlier in the thread.

 

[asiamiles]

Forum member Bebel just listed this Albert Turner B-15C for sale here:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11218

Note the excellent condition of the knits despite the obviously well-used shell and collar, although some fading of the cuffs is apparent. This is further evidence of the variant knit material we discussed earlier in the thread.

Actually not sure there is any "turning green" evident there though, just slight fading that you'd expect on a 50-year old jacket; looks to be a stain on the one cuff, just as there is on the one sleeve...we have to remember these were being worn to do a job. Additionally, the light (and camera flash) can make things look not quite as they are.