Original A-2 Spun Silk Lining

[WBOONE]

At our local A.F.B museum where there are several originals on display, i did notice a manikin dressed as a WW2 aviator with a original A2 on that, the best i can tell where the jacket hangs open a bit on the front, the lining seems to be a crimson silk type fabric. It;s definitely not the "tobacco brown"/ "mustard colored cotton lining. I cant tell which contract it is."

 

[WBOONE]

Also, i had heard that the original spec called for silk, but as it was more important to use the available silk for parachutes once the US got involved in the war, the use of cotton was approved. I've always assumed the A2 on display was a pre-war version when silk was still used.

 

[33-1729]

Silk was preferred over cotton as a parachute material because of its higher strength to weight ratio. In this case top quality, long, reeled silk is used versus weak, damaged or other poor quality silk waste made into spun silk that is carded and woven from a collection of smaller filaments (like wool or cotton). The A-2 lining was to be made from the waste spun silk and not parachute quality reeled silk.

Nylon was developed before WWII and in 1942, thanks to Adeline Gray, nylon began to replace silk as a parachute material. Apparently there was quite a run on nylon stockings at the time (no pun intended).

http://works-words.com/NSM-WIKI/WP/...eded-by-silk-is-replaced-by-nylon-parachutes/

 

[33-1729]

Just a quick update.

Heard back from the National Air and Space Museum about getting a copy of "U.S. Gov., U.S. Army, Army Air Forces. Specification 94-3040; 1932. Jackets; Flying Type A-2" and they’re understaffed at the moment so it will take a number of weeks. Looking for some other items too and may hit the library next time in D.C.

For those interested that haven't seen the other thread in "Vintage", here's a brief summary of what we've found thus far.

• Expect less than fifteen (15) "light brown" spun silk lined pre-production A-2 jackets produced for the Sept. 1930 military service tests, with estimated quantity based upon the sample sizes found in the documentation for the A-1 service test (don't have documentation for the A-2 service tests...yet).

• April 25, 1934 memorandum reference from the Office of the Assistant secretary of War requests an A-2 order using cotton fabric lining, so up to three contracts may have contained silk linings based upon the original spec (32-485, 33-1729 and the elusive 34-518P).

• Spec. 94-3040 is important because all other spec. lining references appear to be from the readily available “Type Designation Sheet” shown below, but the standard punctuation format is “item, semicolon, item, semicolon, etc.” and a hyphen denotes either a line break splitting a word or additional text that was omitted. So “Horse hide leather -– spun silk” all on the same line means missing text and not just two items. Maybe cotton lining was an original option, maybe not.

There was a wide difference between cost and availability between spun silk and cotton, especially for a seven dollar (in 1931) jacket, and the pricing/availability data is in the other thread.

 

[Bombing IP]

Outstanding !

BIP

 

[Cocker]

Nice! Any body has pictures of what they call the A-3/4/5/6 contracts??

 

[33-1729]

Received a kind letter from the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum today and they do not have a copy of the A-2 spec. 94-3040, but recommend checking with the National Archives and Records Administration. Request already in and will keep everyone posted when I hear back (probably four to six weeks).

 

[2BM2K]

Another possible source for the specification is the original jacket making companies, they must have had a copy. There is only one of these companies around today and that is Spiewak.
Spiewak may have a copy in their company archives.

 

[33-1729]

Another possible source for the specification is the original jacket making companies, they must have had a copy. There is only one of these companies around today and that is Spiewak.
Spiewak may have a copy in their company archives.

Good idea. I'll send them a proper letter and let you know when I hear back.

 

[33-1729]

Got a copy of the 94-3040 spec dated May 9, 1931 (the same day the A-2 was released for standard issue) and silk was NOT used on the production A-2.

Please see http://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/spec-94-3040-jackets-flying-type-a-2.20139/ for details.

 

[B-Man2]

Thanks for providing this detailed information.

 

[B-Man2]

I know that Hub Zemkes A2 was posted earlier in this thread but I wanted to include the placard that states how and why the red lining was used to replace the normal linning. What the placard does not tell us is whether the red linning replacement was solely a tradition of his unit the 56th or was it a service wide tradition. If anyone knows the answer please jump in here.
Thanks
B-Man2

 

[Roughwear]

This is excellent stuff. It looks like Zemke's RW 1401-P A-2 was redyed a darker shade at some stage too. As this contract was not awarded until 8th August 1941 it can't have been the jacket he wore in the Spring or Summer of 1941. The waistband, knits and zip are later replacements. Note the top stitching just above the waistband.

 

[dmar836]

So I would assume any of the other info in that placard to be suspect as it is hearsay at best. Even the hard object in front of them is misidentified based on an apparently similarly forwarded memory.
Back to the topic, I wonder if the darker linings of RWs, ect. were, at a glimpse, considered so much more red in color that it started the assumption in the day? Isn't it rumored that the Germans did similar things?
Also, the slippery silk suggested earlier as a nice optional liner is a different beast if one is looking for originality.

JMO,
Dave

 

[regius]

I have handled hundreds of original A2s and seen many more. I have seen pictures of A-2s where the lining has been replaced in red silk perhaps to denote ace status. However I have never seen a contract jacket with a factory installed silk lining. I understand this aspect of the original 1932 spec was quickly changed to cotton as it was a more suitable lining material.

Hi Roughwear, it's been quite a while since I visited. I would like to ask you a sourcing question, will send you a DM.

 

[johnwayne]

Think you’ll find Roughwear doesn’t participate/ contribute here anymore! Like many, inc me, he thought this place has taken a turn with some getting personal at times to comments they don’t agree with! He’s probably the most knowledgeable guy on all things flight jackets and a shame but it is what it is although being a decent guy too, you might get a response at some point!!

 

[zoomer]

I'll just share this advertisement for Security's Cordwain Jacket, the civilian name for their A-2, circa 1932. It's advertised as Army regulation and spun-silk lined.

It could be that the Army, like all services subject to constant budget slashing in the early '30s, found the rather large order for 1,666 jackets was too costly with the silk linings, so it requested the change to cotton. The rest might have been sent back to Security and put on the civvy market (altho at $19.95 a throw they surely didn't sell many in 1932!).

 

[33-1729]

I'll just share this advertisement for Security's Cordwain Jacket, the civilian name for their A-2, circa 1932. It's advertised as Army regulation and spun-silk lined.

It could be that the Army, like all services subject to constant budget slashing in the early '30s, found the rather large order for 1,666 jackets was too costly with the silk linings, so it requested the change to cotton. The rest might have been sent back to Security and put on the civvy market (altho at $19.95 a throw they surely didn't sell many in 1932!).

The paper trail for the Werber order 36-1112P, dated 13-Sept-1935, shows 550 jackets were purchased at a cost of $7.13 per jacket. Contrast that with the 1932 Cordwain jacket listed at $19.75!

At nearly 3X the cost it needs more than a silk lining to justify that price increase, especially in the throes of the 1929-1939 Great Depression.

 

[zoomer]

We're confusing cost with retail price here. Maybe Security was trying to make up for a loss taken on the gov't contract...if indeed it had to be modified due to funding cuts.

Or maybe they were looking to charge more because of the zipper. It was a prestige item at the time. (Notice the copy actually calls it a zipper. The average person in 1932 wouldn't have known the word, or ever seen one.)

 

[33-1729]

I don’t think that’s a viable explanation for Security Aviation Togs in 1932 since the first approved A-2 specification, from May 1931, didn’t call out silk as a lining. I did pull out the wholesale cost of spun silk at that time and it would have added over a dollar per garment as spun silk was dollars per pound versus cotton at pennies per pound. The cheapest spun silk at that time (and the price I used) was for powder bags that burn residue-free and not of a high enough quality for garments (I placed that data on this site in another thread). So the actual garment cost would have been much higher had any silk been used. (The USAAF may not have seen pilot jackets linings that burn residue-free as a selling point )

Note the primary source of information on flying/pilot jackets was a single summary "Type Designation Sheet" (TDS) that was found to contain a few errors per the 2017 declassified A-2 spec documents and so many books used the TDS for reference there is no surprise many know of those erroneous items, and not the latest info. For example, the A-1 drawing number is AN-6501 and not 074737, the A-2 drawing number is 30-1415 and not 31-1415, the A-2 were manufactured with a cotton and not spun silk lining, etc.