GoodWear vs Eastman. Does it have to be a battle?

[Vcruiser]

The latest Eastmans ARE just as accurate as any jacket on the market today. No better than Good Wear. But no worse.

And NO, I don't need a wardrobe full of original A2s to be able to say that.

I need two eyes, *****attention to detail*****, and the ability to make rational, reasoned comparison.

As I said right at the start of this, WHY, for some, the battle? It does look increasingly like a sales pitch.

You seem to fail to realize that you are throwing out bombs that induce battle. Claims that just don't meet the muster of many. Strictly opinion that overlooks "nit picking"... **details**..real comparison...and just settles for what is made available by the jacket company you favor..for other reasons. Then you wonder why some others get 'up in arms' about it. These same tatics have stoked more battles in the past than any. Many consider misinformation...just because a certain jacket maker is prefered..as blasphemy among those who would rather put actual facts out on the forum for all to then consider.

 

[watchmanjimg]

We are talking about mass-produced garments churned out by hand by a sewing operative on piece-work in a wartime factory. No two were exactly the same. And yet now we see fit to decide that because one repro manufacturer is really good (and has raised the bar on the efforts taken to achieve excellence), that must mean (for some) that no one else can be equally as good, and therefore must be compared in a bad light compared with their chosen maker.

Yes, Good Wear jackets are brilliant. I take my hat off to John Chapman for what he has achieved with virtually no help. But I equally take my hat off to Gary Eastman for what he has achieved over many years.

And that's not because I feel I have any need to defend anybody, OR because I happen to own an Eastman. I've been buying Eastmans for 25 years purely because they were good AND easy to obtain in the UK. If I lived in the US, I would almost certainly now be buying Good Wear for the same reason.

The latest Eastmans ARE just as accurate as any jacket on the market today. No better than Good Wear. But no worse.

And NO, I don't need a wardrobe full of original A2s to be able to say that.

I need two eyes, attention to detail, and the ability to make rational, reasoned comparison.

As I said right at the start of this, WHY, for some, the battle? It does look (IMHO) increasingly like a sales pitch.

At the start of this you asked two questions:

1.) n many cases, if you love GoodWear, you've gotta diss ELC. Why is that?
2.) It (your new ELC Monarch) looks and feels fine to me. Is there something I am missing?

As I scroll through the entire thread, there's basically Andrew stating that he prefers Goodwear based on objective criteria versus you insisting that there's some kind of war between the GW and ELC camps--and finally arguing that ELC is just as accurate as GW. You solicited opinions and you got them. However, I don't believe that anyone "dissed" ELC. In fact, many were very clear that they either own jackets from both makers or are willing to. Thus, there is no real contest between enthusiasts of the respective makers--at least not on this forum.

You seem well satisfied with ELC and there's nothing wrong with that. Your new Monarch looks great on you. Enjoy it and don't worry about whether some of us prefer GW. At the same time, you're always free to express your opinion one way or the other. Just don't be offended if you don't get the response you're hoping for.

 

[majormajor1]

You seem to fail to realize that you are throwing out bombs that induce battle. Claims that just don't meet the muster of many. Strictly opinion that overlooks "nit picking"... **details**..real comparison...and just settles for what is made available by the jacket company you favor..for other reasons. Then you wonder why some others get 'up in arms' about it. These same tatics have stoked more battles in the past than any. Many consider misinformation...just because a certain jacket maker is prefered..as blasphemy among those who would rather put actual facts out on the forum for all to then consider.

Hi Van

Gotta be honest, you lost me with alot of that - although you do say "Many consider misinformation...just because a certain jacket maker is prefered..as blasphemy" . So I guess I need to apologise to you for not getting my point across to you. You see, I DON'T prefer a certain manufacturer - that's my whole friggin' point.

Got to go now - I have my own site to moderate. And my site covers much more subjective stuff than here. And the day someone on there describes someone else's views as "blasphemy" is the day I shut it down. :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[majormajor1]

[ However, I don't believe that anyone "dissed" ELC .

This is what Andrew said - I can understand that those who have splashed out nearly £700 on an ELC A2 are abit miffed to find that their prized A2 is not as accurate as a Good Wear, but that's how it goes. The solution is either order a GW or buy a decent original.

Sounds like dissing to me. And the only place they "found out" from was from Andrew......... I've already said that if I lived in the US, I would be buying GW. I have no ELC axe to grind.

As I've now said at least twice, close the thread if that's what suits you guys best, but don't ignore the fact that some (NOT ALL) members ARE biased.

 

[SuinBruin]

The latest Eastmans ARE just as accurate as any jacket on the market today. No better than Good Wear. But no worse.

You are the one who invited the comparison between Eastman and Good Wear in this thread. So trying to disavow the consequences of that comparison rings hollow to me. People have respectfully offered a differing opinion and then been accused in your eyes of engaging in some sort of "battle." I just don't see it that way.

Eastman makes a fine jacket. Many people here own them, enjoy them, and tout them. No one here has a problem with that; I certainly don't. But when you go out of your way to say that Eastman is just as good as Good Wear you are going to draw some contrasting opinions. That's not a bug in the forum, it's a feature.

P.S. "Bias" is not synonymous with opinion. If Andrew was a close personal friend of John's or was a dealer for him or got a kickback for jacket sales, then, yes, he would be biased. But so far as I can tell his opinion is based 100% on direct personal experience with a large number of original and repro A-2s. If that counts as "bias" then the word has lost all meaning.

 

[Vcruiser]

This is what Andrew said - I can understand that those who have splashed out nearly £700 on an ELC A2 are abit miffed to find that their prized A2 is not as accurate as a Good Wear, but that's how it goes. The solution is either order a GW or buy a decent original.

Sounds like dissing to me. And the only place they "found out" from was from Andrew.........

Dissing..? Sounds like fact to me...coming from one of us many nitpickers..
...however..you stated that the little details aren't so important to you..so evidently you shouldn't be miffed at all in Andrew's scenario. Yet you would rather engage and seem miffed with those who find details as most important for a prize repro A2.

Misinformation derived from strictly opinion without any factual honest comparison can be viewed as a form of blasphemy of true facts...or untruths to justify only opinion.

 

[majormajor1]

[ Dissing..? Sounds like fact to me...coming from one of us many nitpickers..

Right on Van. Go for it

...however..you stated that the little details aren't so important to you...

What? No I didn't. I'm passionate about details. Does anyone on here actually read posts before putting them down :?: :?: :?: :?:

PLEASE close this thread. I promise not to utter another word on here (cue applause from stage left)

 

[Cobblers161]

From one plain speaking Yorkshireman to another for crying out loud give it a rest! Either you have a major axe to grind or you're a wind up merchant either way just ease up a little, please!

 

[stanier]

Gents, seems to me there's a bit of an element on this thread that's getting a bit personal and its obviously touched a nerve.

I have never owned a Goodwear A-2 though I'd Like to (and an RMNZ, BR, The Few etc) but have had ELC. However, I don't own an A-2 at all right now! I do have ELC D-1, BR Superior Togs B-10 and BR B-15C.

I have looked at many original pics of those unfortunate souls that wore original A-2's and with some small exceptions they appear to have jackets that were too long, or short, or big, or small. I have the impression that in WWII you got what you were given.

GW jiggling with dimensions, or ELC not etc, etc is all a matter of personal choice, IMHO. Regardless of pocket spacing, collar dimensions, leather choice etc etc

I would however comment that reading this forum you could walk away with the impression that GW make the authentic product and ELC play second fiddle. For me, I don't believe that's true and strongly suspect, for example, that if it was possible to take a current ELC RW 27752 contract repro and GW RW 27752 (for example) and compare to "straight off the line" 27752's, across a days production (for example) you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between any of them. We seem to debate the type of hide, pocket shape etc, and yet I bet that an original example did exist to support most possibilities. These minor details are important, but not exclusive.

I personally have the impression that I see a number of GW jackets for sale (secondhand) with varying dimensions yet with common size label, that worries me. And customers that seem to want better knits, HH and all. For ELC, knits seem to be questioned and HH and zips.

Yet without either company I for one know my life would be poorer, so please lets support them both!

Cheers

 

[deeb7]

Many small manufacturing business's such as tanneries simply don't sell direct. They prefer to deal through wholesalers. It's a one stop drop for them. There are numerous such wholesalers in the Far East.
And how do you know that ELC don't source their Italian HH from the same Japanese source?

Simple .... because ELC tell us.

It is a 100% veg-tanned material that is traditionally tanned and sourced from Italy.

 

[Silver Dollar]

The latest Eastmans ARE just as accurate as any jacket on the market today. No better than Good Wear. But no worse.

And NO, I don't need a wardrobe full of original A2s to be able to say that.

I need two eyes, *****attention to detail*****, and the ability to make rational, reasoned comparison.

As I said right at the start of this, WHY, for some, the battle? It does look increasingly like a sales pitch.

You seem to fail to realize that you are throwing out bombs that induce battle. Claims that just don't meet the muster of many. Strictly opinion that overlooks "nit picking"... **details**..real comparison...and just settles for what is made available by the jacket company you favor..for other reasons. Then you wonder why some others get 'up in arms' about it. These same tatics have stoked more battles in the past than any. Many consider misinformation...just because a certain jacket maker is prefered..as blasphemy among those who would rather put actual facts out on the forum for all to then consider.

Hey guys. This is not my quote. Please don't credit me with this opinion.

 

[Silver Dollar]

This is exactly the same thing that happens in the model aircraft world. You have builders who really don't care about 100% accuracy and who only want a good representation of the plane. Then you have the rivet counters who will totally avoid a fairly decent kit because something is a millimeter off here or there or because of one detail or another. Neither of one of those approaches are better or worse than the other, they're just different. It's just what you prefer. The best part of the situation is that when several companies are competeing to be the best in the business, just look at the great products you can buy.

With respect, it is not exactly the same. Aeroplanes are made to blueprints - if the measurements were wrong they could well fall out of the sky. And they are made to very fine tolerances were safety is paramount. And so a fine scale model should reflect exactly the same correctness. In my model engineering days I used to work to 100th of a milimeter. But that is NOT what we are talking about here.

We are talking about mass-produced garments churned out by hand by a sewing operative on piece-work in a wartime factory. No two were exactly the same. And yet now we see fit to decide that because one repro manufacturer is really good (and has raised the bar on the efforts taken to achieve excellence), that must mean (for some) that no one else can be equally as good, and therefore must be compared in a bad light compared with their chosen maker.

.

Arrrggghghhhh!!!!!! You're taking this way too literally and missing the point I'm making. Believe me it's the same. Read what I said again, please. It's not about the safety, it's not about falling out of the sky or something cut exactly to an aeronautically correct design. It's about looking at the same thing in two different ways. Way number one says if my reproduction kit is only 98% perfect, it's going into the garbage. Way number two says "The repro doesn't have to be 100% accurate to suit me. Even 90% accuracy is o.k. with me. Nobody will really ever see the difference. You have two different opinions here, each saying something different. Neither opinion is wrong, just different. I'm saying it's up to the preference of the individual builder or jacket wearer to decide for themselves what prooduct they want to buy and why. Then I said if this kind of competition to make the most perfect A2 in existence continues, then look at all the great products that will be available. If people want to knock themselves out battling about which company produces what, fine. That's their passion.

 

[majormajor1]

Gents, seems to me there's a bit of an element on this thread that's getting a bit personal and its obviously touched a nerve.

I have never owned a Goodwear A-2 though I'd Like to (and an RMNZ, BR, The Few etc) but have had ELC. However, I don't own an A-2 at all right now! I do have ELC D-1, BR Superior Togs B-10 and BR B-15C.

I have looked at many original pics of those unfortunate souls that wore original A-2's and with some small exceptions they appear to have jackets that were too long, or short, or big, or small. I have the impression that in WWII you got what you were given.

GW jiggling with dimensions, or ELC not etc, etc is all a matter of personal choice, IMHO. Regardless of pocket spacing, collar dimensions, leather choice etc etc

I would however comment that reading this forum you could walk away with the impression that GW make the authentic product and ELC play second fiddle. For me, I don't believe that's true and strongly suspect, for example, that if it was possible to take a current ELC RW 27752 contract repro and GW RW 27752 (for example) and compare to "straight off the line" 27752's, across a days production (for example) you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between any of them. We seem to debate the type of hide, pocket shape etc, and yet I bet that an original example did exist to support most possibilities. These minor details are important, but not exclusive.

I personally have the impression that I see a number of GW jackets for sale (secondhand) with varying dimensions yet with common size label, that worries me. And customers that seem to want better knits, HH and all. For ELC, knits seem to be questioned and HH and zips.

Yet without either company I for one know my life would be poorer, so please lets support them both!

Cheers

My thoughts entirely.

I'm not gonna say another word on this now. I'm done. Thankyou all for your thoughts, and a peaceful and happy Christmas to you all

 

[Roughwear]

ELC make some excellent repros and my favourite is their 1933 Werber and is the only A2 I currently own by this maker. IMO some of the newer jackets, such as the RW 27752, the Monarch and the new Star are disappointing because the leather is too thick and shiny. I have seen both the RW and Monarch at Duxford earlier in the year and directly compared the hh with the well preserved original that I was wearing. The Italian hh is nice but not as close to that used on originals. Some of Gary's much earlier hides were a closer match.

The only objective way to evaluate the relative merits of GW and ELC A2s is by direct comparison with original A2s. This would involve a review of each contract made by ELC and GW with an original for comparison. There is some info under the repro section and vintage section to begin do this if any one can be bothered! :lol:

 

[rich]

It's a good thing Rotenhahn isn't posting any more or we'd have a complete conflagration here. :lol:

In a forum dedicated to reproduction WWII era flight jackets, it may not be the best approach to describe a focus on authenticity and attention to detail as "nitpicking." That's pretty much all we do here.

FWIW

I was thinking the same thing! And so, in tribute................ best wishes Jeff, hope you're doing OK.

 

[Vcruiser]

ELC make some excellent repros and my favourite is their 1933 Werber and is the only A2 I currently own by this maker. IMO some of the newer jackets, such as the RW 27752, the Monarch and the new Star are disappointing because the leather is too thick and shiny. I have seen both the RW and Monarch at Duxford earlier in the year and directly compared the hh with the well preserved original that I was wearing. The Italian hh is nice but not as close to that used on originals. Some of Gary's much earlier hides were a closer match.

The only objective way to evaluate the relative merits of GW and ELC A2s is by direct comparison with original A2s. This would involve a review of each contract made by ELC and GW with an original for comparison. There is some info under the repro section and vintage section to begin do this if any one can be bothered! :lol:

However...with some..it now seems that many originals should be compared to ELC until a match is surely found(?)rather than concern over the repro actually lacking uniform details with the spec or contract it's attempting to reproduce. little to do with the quality or niceness of a top of the line jacket...but only that another company is actually incorporating a 'better' match in most of the WW2 contracts it is now reproducing. It still comes down to spending good money for a premium WW2 A2 lookalike....or similar coin for one with more complete details. Matching hides...colors..knits..thread...etc..that better represents certain contracts does matter to many(no way around it). Again...insinuating or even boldly stating that there really isn't any difference to be concerned with...in order to further state that they are both nice...is nice..but ignores the obvious. The battle really isn't just the details..but seems..resentment that many now consider GW the frontrunner in certain areas...not just an equal.

 

[bseal]

Rotenhan sure looks good in the new ELC 27552.

 

[KhalilSheikh]

ELC make some excellent repros and my favourite is their 1933 Werber and is the only A2 I currently own by this maker.

Same here. That is the only repro I own from any maker. My Goodwear is one of John's civilian beauties.

 

[Anonymous]

The latest Eastmans ARE just as accurate as any jacket on the market today. No better than Good Wear. But no worse

Hi there and Merry Christmas! A discussion tailor made to my tastes- I'll break my silence just this once as a Christmas present to you all! Mr. Major- you can say this:

The latest Eastmans ARE just as accurate as any jacket on the market today. No better than Good Wear. But no worse

all you want but it won't make it so- the fact is that Eastman is far behind Goodwear in the accuracy department. Andrew (bless his soul) has been diplomatically trying to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about- if you had handled as many originals as he and if you weren't so prejudiced you'd easily see that Eastmans really for the most part look like Eastmans first and not WW2 A-2s! The Roughwear contract is an obsession with me- not the history, not necessarily all the attendant trivia such as contract years and areas of issue but the exact details and fit of the Roughwear jacket are OBSESSIONS of mine. I can guarantee you that an Eastman 27752 is not even a good rough draft when compared to an original RW 27752. I can tell you that a GW 27752 is scarily close! As Andrew has tried to school you- the devil is in the details- and Eastman is still in the grip of Satan! I could enumerate all the exact little details that Eastman has gotten wrong but I don't want to give away any trade secrets so a few will suffice. First- the Eastman overall pattern is simply not the same as the WW2 Roughwear- the collar doesn't sit the same and the sleeves and body shapes are generic. The Eastman epaulets are incorrect- there is a small detail (one of the trade secrets) which they have never gotten right- you'll have to trust me it's there. The snaps in the collar lack the little leather backing tab which the WW2 Roughwears all have. The Eastman pocket shape has varied quite a bit over the years but it has never (even coincidentally) been really right. Check out the way the zipper is sewn into the body on an Eastman- ever wonder why you don't see that little extra stitch line you see in WW2 originals? The seam allowances visible on on the surface of the leather are grotesque on the Eastmans- unpleasant whoosh shapes which originals don't have. Eastman also uses the same bright green thread on both the 1401p and the 27752- OK for the 27752 but wrong for the vast majority of 1401ps. Eastman's leather is better now but they still don't look quite right- the grain pattern isn't distributed as it is when all of the horsehide is used. If you obsessively pore over hundred of photos of originals you'll see what I mean. I really could go on but I won't- needless to say that all these problems and silly little details are things which Goodwear gets right! I have only one jacket right now- a large Goodwear 27752. It is uncanny! As members of this forum know (or not probably anymore) I've bought and sold many repro jackets in the last 5 years. I'm still scarred by the Eastman 1401ps I had- all those hours looking at my reflection in shop windows as if I could magically correct it by wishing- wishing it was not so wrong-looking! I've also had many Goodwears in my quest for that perfect Roughwear- usually a fluke of fit made me sell them- short sleeves. The Goodwear I'm wearing in bseal's post was one of John's earlier jackets- I liked it but felt it was too small. Even that 2008 model with Horween leather was more "correct" than the current Eastman. I could go on- ask all the old-time members now rolling their eyes! But wishing or affirming or saying or hoping or insisting that the current Eastman is as good as a Goodwear won't make it so!

 

[Vcruiser]

Merry Christmas,Jeff...!
Van