GoodWear vs Eastman. Does it have to be a battle?

[watchmanjimg]

[ I'm sorry you say you do not know about the indentation in nipple snaps, but for people who want 100% accuracy it is important to get this detail and all others correct.

Andrew, I did not say I did not know about nipple snaps - I said I didn't understand nipple FLAPS, which is what you said. My ELC has perfectly accurate indentations, thanks very much.

I can understand that those who have splashed out nearly £700 on an ELC A2 are abit miffed to find that their prized A2 is not as accurate as a Good Wear, but that's how it goes. The solution is either order a GW or buy a decent original.

Now THAT is exactly the type of "holier than thou" statement I had in mind when I started this thread. Looks like a sales pitch to me.

I really do suggest that this thread is closed now, because my question has certainly been answered

Although in my opinion closing a thread on a relevant topic is hardly appropriate in a discussion forum, it would now appear that Dave was on the right track after all:

Can we now lock this thread. It should have been titled, "Let's Start An Arguement About Why GW Is No Better Than ELC."

So the question has now been answered. Yes it is easy to sustain an argument about variences in different makers jackets.

I'm sorry, I thought this was a forum - isn't discussion what is supposed to happen here?

Yeah, lock it mate. I'll say nothing more on here

You were fine with continuing the discussion until it became obvious that objectivity prevailed over opinion. As I suggested at the beginning of the thread, personal preference is all that really matters. If you like your ELC, more power to you. Unless you're looking for a battle, who cares what anyone else thinks? :x :x :x

 

[cmk-2]

What about the people who bought the early GW's ( I being one of them) They should be miffed as well. With the new leather, improved knits amd better lining that John has worked hard at getting. I also believe that Gary at Eastman would have been happy to sit back and produce the A-2's he has done for years had John not come along and raised the bar. We all win in the end by having the best repros ever made (at this time). However I still say that service after the sale on John's side leaves a lot to be desired. If by saying something bad about GW is a reason to lock this thread then so be it.

 

[SuinBruin]

It's a good thing Rotenhahn isn't posting any more or we'd have a complete conflagration here. :lol:

In a forum dedicated to reproduction WWII era flight jackets, it may not be the best approach to describe a focus on authenticity and attention to detail as "nitpicking." That's pretty much all we do here.

FWIW

 

[watchmanjimg]

What about the people who bought the early GW's ( I being one of them) They should be miffed as well. With the new leather, improved knits amd better lining that John has worked hard at getting. I also believe that Gary at Eastman would have been happy to sit back and produce the A-2's he has done for years had John not come along and raised the bar. We all win in the end by having the best repros ever made (at this time). However I still say that service after the sale on John's side leaves a lot to be desired. If by saying something bad about GW is a reason to lock this thread then so be it.

It's clear that public comments on this forum and elsewhere have not gone unnoticed by the manufacturers. Those who are sensitive to criticism will simply have to get over it. Preventing such discussion by locking threads would only hurt us as the end users.

 

[SuinBruin]

What about the people who bought the early GW's ( I being one of them) They should be miffed as well. With the new leather, improved knits amd better lining that John has worked hard at getting. I also believe that Gary at Eastman would have been happy to sit back and produce the A-2's he has done for years had John not come along and raised the bar. We all win in the end by having the best repros ever made (at this time). However I still say that service after the sale on John's side leaves a lot to be desired. If by saying something bad about GW is a reason to lock this thread then so be it.

I own an "early" GW (a Bronco in goat). John has since upgraded his Bronco pattern and label along with the knits. But I still love the jacket. It's just as good as the day I bought it -- it only suffers in comparison to the new version. My solution was to buy an upgraded Bronco in horse as well. (John also sold me one of his new Bronco labels to install in the old jacket.) If you're not happy with the "old" GW, sell it on eBay and use the funds to buy a new one (or an Eastman, if you prefer). You won't get perfect replacement value, but it's like technology... your top-of-the-line phone or computer is not going to remain so for very long. We should celebrate rather than lament John's continued progress as a maker of great A-2s (and Eastman's, for that matter).

The downside to John's one man shop business model is that it leaves him with not much in the way of margins. The cost/benefit ratio for doing repairs/modifications does not justify time spent on this, which I fully understand. But I'm sure you can ask John to sell you a set of his upgraded knits and have a local leather tailor install them.... that would be my recommended course of action.

 

[majormajor1]

Let's hope that both companies keep in business, especially through these difficult times and keep whetting our appetites with their wonderful products.

Top of my A-2 wish list would be a Goodwear Dubow with an early chrome Crown zip, and equal top choice one of ELC's new Warhorse Star models. I want them both!

But right now I really wish I had a B-3 with all the snow!

Cheers all!

Damn right Stanier. Freezing cold in the snow here in Yorkshire too. A B-3 or even a B-6 would come in very handy!!

 

[zoomer]

What about the people who bought the early GW's ( I being one of them) They should be miffed as well. With the new leather, improved knits amd better lining that John has worked hard at getting. I also believe that Gary at Eastman would have been happy to sit back and produce the A-2's he has done for years had John not come along and raised the bar. We all win in the end by having the best repros ever made (at this time). However I still say that service after the sale on John's side leaves a lot to be desired. If by saying something bad about GW is a reason to lock this thread then so be it.

It's clear that public comments on this forum and elsewhere have not gone unnoticed by the manufacturers. Those who are sensitive to criticism will simply have to get over it. Preventing such discussion by locking threads would only hurt us as the end users.

That's pretty much what happened circa 1999, in the day of the DejaNews (now Google Groups) newsgroup deja.comm.a2jackets.

This was the early internets, when the web could do much less and fewer people could do the web. Manufacturers - of any specialty product - had no idea how to manage their public image except the traditional way, one customer at a time. (I saw it happen with music dealers on other groups.) Result: shilling, sock puppeting, and a hopeless tangle of allegiances going everyotherwhichway, as almost everybody puffed up and talked smack about someone or another...in the traditional way, as if no one but you and they were reading...but with a vengeance born of a new game without any rules.

Final score: lose/lose for the makers and the consumers. Much goodwill was squandered. Lines of mistrust were drawn that persist even a decade later. Butthurt took place such that folks left the toobz never to return. deja.comm.a2jackets shut down, its atmosphere polluted beyond repair. It now lurks on the dark fringes of the infobahn, a seldom-visited reminder of stuff a bunch of guys would rather not be reminded of.

 

[cmk-2]

With all respect to John and Gary. I am not miffed at all with the upgrades to their jackets I have sold my old GW and AERO"S and Eastman in the search for the "perfect Repro". What I was trying to point out is the statment someone made about being miffed with Eastman.
I do have to point out that with John being a 1 man show the margins are much higher per jacket then with Gary with a team of employes. Now I believe John is a 2 person show. I have a good idea from inside sources what the cost is of the leather, cloth, zip and knits and John and Gary are doing very well with their price points. They have room to in the price to correct their mistakes or defects.

 

[dmar836]

The "locking the thread" comment was tongue in cheek.
But you have to admit, you are clearly and repeatedly stoking the fire of the very "battle" you say isn't necessary. No harm - we've all done it.
On this forum, you'll get an argument all day and no "side" should apologize for that.
As SuinBruin said, picking at details is pretty much all we do. Besides, the site is primarily founded on the collection of original "vintage" jackets. Though repros are a large part of the discussion, it is only because of their relation to the originals. Therefore, "nitpicking" is, in my opinion, not only inevitable but completely appropriate here - and not a bad word.
Nitpick on!
Dave

 

[philip.ed]

I agree with regards to knitpicking.
Out of curiosity, would any of you pay more for a jacket just because it had a certain feature that wasn't noticeable? Even if it was just something like a small label under a pocket flap or a manufacturers stamp on a press-stud?

 

[watchmanjimg]

Out of curiosity, would any of you pay more for a jacket just because it had a certain feature that wasn't noticeable? Even if it was just something like a small label under a pocket flap or a manufacturers stamp on a press-stud?

Haven't we been doing that for some years already?

 

[SuinBruin]

With all respect to John and Gary. I am not miffed at all with the upgrades to their jackets I have sold my old GW and AERO"S and Eastman in the search for the "perfect Repro". What I was trying to point out is the statment someone made about being miffed with Eastman.
I do have to point out that with John being a 1 man show the margins are much higher per jacket then with Gary with a team of employes. Now I believe John is a 2 person show. I have a good idea from inside sources what the cost is of the leather, cloth, zip and knits and John and Gary are doing very well with their price points. They have room to in the price to correct their mistakes or defects.

You've got it backwards. Economies of scale and a production line approach increase margins -- Eastman should have an easier time turning a profit than John (particularly insofar as John will customize jackets to a degree that Eastman won't). Plus John offers a wider range of options in terms of pattern, leather, etc. Switching from one to another takes time; it's easier to master and crank out one pattern than it is two or three.

John probably makes 2-3 jackets a week. At $1k per jacket, that means he's grossing $100 to $125k before allowing for materials, overhead, etc. Hardly a killing. If he has to take part of a day otherwise devoted to making a jacket to repair work his margins will sink even further. The "help" he has hired is on the admin rather than the production side, so far as I understand.

This isn't intended to be a hagiography for John Chapman or Good Wear Leather, but simply to recognize that John's model is more of the craftsman than the factory. That approach has pluses and minuses both. Overall I think the product can't be beat, but it is something of a negative that you can't just ship a Good Wear back to John for repair/replacement work as you can with Eastman or Aero.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Overall I think the product can't be beat, but it is something of a negative that you can't just ship a Good Wear back to John for repair/replacement work as you can with Eastman or Aero.

JC has done repair work for me--on another maker's jacket. All it takes is a little patience with the poor guy.

 

[Vcruiser]

I think a preconceived notion of "holier than thou" was embedded in the original battle question of this thread in the first place. Otherwise..it should not matter which copy of a WW2 A2 is the most accurate. "Any Eastman should be good enough for anyone"...and I'll make excuses as to just why they actually may be a better WW2 jacket match afterall.
I don't get it..? If we didn't nit-pick...and point out obvious faults concerning repros..and be enthusiastic about a closer clone...ordinary mall 'bomber jackets' should serve the purpose just as well. Unless you then go "holier than thou" over a designer label...or latest shrunken lamb hide from NYC.
I notice more of a battle brewing and stewing with those who just don't want to admit that there are logical reasons why their preference may still be at 'fault' no matter how they slice and dice it. Simply..it is what it is..and could be better. Sorry..if you let it..sometimes the truth hurts....but if the brand is good enough for you...'it shouldn't'. Trying to convince some others that it is equal to the best might not be so easy,tho.
Why lock down this type of thread?? We've debated this kind of stuff for years...and some have always felt slighted that others may think their preference isn't as good. At least we list the reasons why. Then everyone can decide for themselves just what makes the most sense.
Van

 

[deeb7]

And as for the latest hides, there simply aren’t that many sources of this stuff in the world now, and for both GW and ELC to be sourcing from Italy (whether via Japan or not – that is quite common in the leather trade), then the likelihood of it being the same stuff is very high ...

You make it sound like the Japanese are simply reselling Italian horsehide, and I don't believe that this is the case. Horsehide tanned, and finished in Japan may well be of a similar quality to the ELC Italian horsehide, but it isn't the same stuff.

 

[John Lever]

The Italians have a huge leather trade and it's a real speciality, rather like the Germans and cars.
Skins can of course have a completely different country of origin to that of the tannery. For example the Merino Fenland use comes from South Africa but is tanned in Devon/Somerset than shipped to NZ...
I understand the The Few and JC use the same tanneries. Always makes me chuckle when people declare the Few stuff looks like plastic !

 

[Silver Dollar]

This is exactly the same thing that happens in the model aircraft world. You have builders who really don't care about 100% accuracy and who only want a good representation of the plane. Then you have the rivet counters who will totally avoid a fairly decent kit because something is a millimeter off here or there or because of one detail or another. Neither of one of those approaches are better or worse than the other, they're just different. It's just what you prefer. The best part of the situation is that when several companies are competeing to be the best in the business, just look at the great products you can buy.

 

[SuinBruin]

And as for the latest hides, there simply aren’t that many sources of this stuff in the world now, and for both GW and ELC to be sourcing from Italy (whether via Japan or not – that is quite common in the leather trade), then the likelihood of it being the same stuff is very high ...

You make it sound like the Japanese are simply reselling Italian horsehide, and I don't believe that this is the case. Horsehide tanned, and finished in Japan may well be of a similar quality to the ELC Italian horsehide, but it isn't the same stuff.

Exactly. Why would JC source purely Italian horsehide through a Japanese distributor? It would just add another middleman to the transaction and increase the cost.

 

[majormajor1]

This is exactly the same thing that happens in the model aircraft world. You have builders who really don't care about 100% accuracy and who only want a good representation of the plane. Then you have the rivet counters who will totally avoid a fairly decent kit because something is a millimeter off here or there or because of one detail or another. Neither of one of those approaches are better or worse than the other, they're just different. It's just what you prefer. The best part of the situation is that when several companies are competeing to be the best in the business, just look at the great products you can buy.

With respect, it is not exactly the same. Aeroplanes are made to blueprints - if the measurements were wrong they could well fall out of the sky. And they are made to very fine tolerances were safety is paramount. And so a fine scale model should reflect exactly the same correctness. In my model engineering days I used to work to 100th of a milimeter. But that is NOT what we are talking about here.

We are talking about mass-produced garments churned out by hand by a sewing operative on piece-work in a wartime factory. No two were exactly the same. And yet now we see fit to decide that because one repro manufacturer is really good (and has raised the bar on the efforts taken to achieve excellence), that must mean (for some) that no one else can be equally as good, and therefore must be compared in a bad light compared with their chosen maker.

Yes, Good Wear jackets are brilliant. I take my hat off to John Chapman for what he has achieved with virtually no help. But I equally take my hat off to Gary Eastman for what he has achieved over many years.

And that's not because I feel I have any need to defend anybody, OR because I happen to own an Eastman. I've been buying Eastmans for 25 years purely because they were good AND easy to obtain in the UK. If I lived in the US, I would almost certainly now be buying Good Wear for the same reason.

The latest Eastmans ARE just as accurate as any jacket on the market today. No better than Good Wear. But no worse.

And NO, I don't need a wardrobe full of original A2s to be able to say that.

I need two eyes, attention to detail, and the ability to make rational, reasoned comparison.

As I said right at the start of this, WHY, for some, the battle? It does look (IMHO) increasingly like a sales pitch.

 

[majormajor1]

Exactly. Why would JC source purely Italian horsehide through a Japanese distributor? It would just add another middleman to the transaction and increase the cost.

Many small manufacturing business's such as tanneries simply don't sell direct. They prefer to deal through wholesalers. It's a one stop drop for them. There are numerous such wholesalers in the Far East.
And how do you know that ELC don't source their Italian HH from the same Japanese source?