Discussion: “A Better Fighting Garment…” - A Beginner’s Guide to the US Navy’s WWII-era and later Intermediate Flight Jackets

[ZuZu]

Those are the sources I'm aware of. That being said, Dave has said elsewhere that silk thread looks noticeably different from cotton because it's more shiny. So it's not as if they're making this claim just on the basis of jackets where they've taken the garment apart and tested the threads. @Maverickson can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think someone with a practiced eye can tell cotton from silk just by taking a close look at the jacket.


Could very well be the case (and if so, we'd be happy to correct that error) - I'm not as well-versed in the later G-1s and I don't think I worked on that section. My impression was that impressed cowhide came in at around the same time as dynal collars, but that could be wrong. Does anyone else have an answer on this one?

I agree that sometimes it's easy to tell silk thread apart from cotton. I had a beautifully intact RW 18091 that I'm 90% sure was sewn with dark brown silk thread. Thin shiny strong.

Anyway- from The Big Guy I'm pretty sure there were some M422As sewn with cotton. Deteriorated in sun, easy to pull apart. My ETC I'm not sure of. It may have sun fade (I can't really tell) but it's definitely at this point as strong as the day it was made. It's a mystery- especially with the addition of linen into the mix.

BTW- great article- too bad in can't be made into a coffee table book with the great photos- especially Jorges!

I'll read some more- maybe a few more nits...

 

[MikeyB-17]

I feel I ought to bring up the subject of the Irvin B Foster ‘C’ series ‘extra seam’ as talked about in this thread:-
Thread 'New (or nearly so) Irvin Foster G-1'
https://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/new-or-nearly-so-irvin-foster-g-1.27603/
(Post no.8 onwards). AFAIK no other manufacturer did this, I may be nuts but I think it’s worthy of consideration for inclusion in this fabulous thread.

 

[Ritchy]

12. MIL-J-7823E (AS) [1971 - Present]

The 7823E (AS) was introduced in 1971. It adopted the amended features of the late 7823D models; that is, cowhide, dynel collars, and 100% wool, double-ply, no rib-rack knits. The feature that most distinguishes them, however, is the white (as opposed to black) spec label that made its first appearance here.

These are the most abundant but the least collectible of all G-1 types. Although most find that the cowhide creaks and the Dynel collars do not age as well as mouton (mouton tends to go from brown to golden with wear and exposure to the elements, whereas Dynel goes from black to a clumpy ‘dirty grey’), E series jackets are, nonetheless, genuine USN flight jackets and they make for incredibly durable, “where-anywhere, do-anything”, daily beaters. For someone starting to collect Navy flying jackets they can be a very accessible entry point.

SPECIFICATION MIL-J-7823E (AS)	Contract dates	Comments
MIL-J-7823E (AS) BRILL BROS., INC. DSA 100-71-C-1343	1971
MIL-J-7823E (AS) RALPH EDWARDS SPORTSWEAR, INC.
MIL-J-7823E (AS) BRILL BROS., INC. DSA-72-C1138	1972
MIL-J-7823E(AS) STAR SPORTSWEAR MFG. CORP. DSA100-72-C-0060	1972
MIL-J-7823E (AS) BRILL BROS., INC. DSA-73-C-0035	1973
MIL-J-7823E(AS) STAR SPORTSWEAR MFG. CORP. DSA100-73-C-0034	1973
MIL-J-7823E(AS) IMPERIAL FASHIONS, INC. DSA100-74-0162	1974
MIL-J-7823E (AS) BRILL BROS., INC. DSA100-75-C-0332	1975	https://www.vintageleatherjackets.o...ermediate-flyers-jacket-mil-j-7823e-as.25952/
MIL-J-7823E(AS) STAR SPORTSWEAR MFG. CORP. DSA100-75-C-0331	1975
MIL-J-7823E(AS) FERGUSON OF OKLAHOMA DSA100-76-C-1788	1976
MIL-J-7823E(AS) IMPERIAL LEATHER & SPORTSWEAR INC. DSA100-76-C-1788	1976
MIL - J 7823E(AS) IMPERIAL LEATHER & SPORTSWEAR INC. DSA100-76-C-0375	1976
MIL-J-7823E (AS) RALPH EDWARDS SPORTSWEAR, INC. DSA100-77-C-1518	1977
MIL-J-7823E (AS) BRILL BROS., INC. DLA100-82-C-0564	1982
MIL-J-7823E (AS) RALPH EDWARDS SPORTSWEAR, INC. DLA100-84-C-0771	1984
MIL-J-7823E(AS) ORCHARD M/C DIST. INC. DLA100-86-C-0481	1986
MIL-J-7823E (AS) BRILL BROS., INC. DLA100-86-C-0451	1986
NONE ON TAG BRILL BROS., INC. DLA100-87-C-0739	1987
MIL-J-7823E(AS) COOPER SPORTSWEAR MFG. CO., INC DLA100-89-C-0480	1989
MIL-J-7823E(AS) COOPER SPORTSWEAR MFG. CO., INC DLA100-91-C-0323	1991
MIL-J-7823E(AS) COOPER SPORTSWEAR MFG. CO. INC DLA100-92-C-0454	1992
MIL-J-7823E COOPER SPORTSWEAR MFG. CO., INC SPO-100-95-M-SH82	1995
MIL-J-7823E COOPER SPORTSWEAR MFG. CO., INC SPO-100-96-C-4015	1996
MIL-J-7823E(AS) SCHOTT BROS., INC. SPO100-98-C-5015	1998
MIL-J-7823E(AS) EXCELLED SHEEPSKIN & LEATHER COAT CO. SPO 100-99-D-5076-0001	1999
MIL-J-7823E(AS) PHARR BRAND NAME APPAREL SP0100-04-D-4247-0001	2004
MIL-J-7823E(AS) EXCELLED SHEEPSKIN & LEATHER COAT CO. SP0 100-04-4119	2004

is the 7823E still cowhide and the label still white? I bought one recently from 1971, which I don't have yet since it was delivered to my daughter in London. I don't know what leather it is yet but it has a black label.

 

[mulceber]

Yeah, I just stumbled upon that last night while poking around on John's CD - he points out that the E-series MOSTLY had white labels - i.e. there were a few that had black labels. Given that your jacket there is from the first E-series contract, it's not surprising that it's one of the black labels. That's an error we should follow up on.

 

[Ritchy]

Ouais, je suis juste tombé dessus hier soir en fouillant sur le CD de John - il souligne que la série E avait PLUPART des étiquettes blanches - c'est-à-dire qu'il y en avait quelques-unes qui avaient des étiquettes noires. Étant donné que votre veste provient du premier contrat de la série E, il n'est pas surprenant que ce soit l'une des étiquettes noires. C'est une erreur que nous devrions suivre.

 

[ZuZu]

I feel I ought to bring up the subject of the Irvin B Foster ‘C’ series ‘extra seam’ as talked about in this thread:-
Thread 'New (or nearly so) Irvin Foster G-1'
https://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/new-or-nearly-so-irvin-foster-g-1.27603/
(Post no.8 onwards). AFAIK no other manufacturer did this, I may be nuts but I think it’s worthy of consideration for inclusion in this fabulous thread.

There is also the famous Irvin B Foster with LITERALLY a seam down the middle of the back. I looked through my morgue file and sure enough I found it! Both seams maybe should be discussed- the gusset and this weird anamoly.

Irvin B Foster 'B' seam on back panel:

 

[mulceber]

There is also the famous Irvin B Foster with LITERALLY a seam down the middle of the back. I looked through my morgue file and sure enough I found it! Both seams maybe should be discussed- the gusset and this weird anamoly.

Irvin B Foster 'B' seam on back panel:

View attachment 106993

View attachment 106995

Fascinating - that's one I hadn't encountered before. Have you seen multiple examples with this seam down the middle of the back, or could this have been a one-off?

@MikeyB-17, is this the extra seam you're talking about?

 

[ZuZu]

Fascinating - that's one I hadn't encountered before. Have you seen multiple examples with this seam down the middle of the back, or could this have been a one-off?

I think there may be more examples. I remember it was a thing. I'm pretty sure there are a few.

 

[John Luder]

A question for all.
Have looked at numerous chats and entries here, and other fora.'That's Latin, Dahlin'. Evidently, Mr. Ringo is an educated man' Name that movie.
My new 6552 is sealbrown and I'm not going to make a bollocks of this one like the first one.
Navy aviators wore the squadron patch on the right in Korea, seemingly without exception. WWII aviators seem to have them on the right breast, with name on the left. A majority, perhaps.
Submarines had their own cartoon mascots, like the flyers. But, I can't find any photos of sub officers with leather jackets (except 1943's Crash Dive, wearing A-2s).
Let's assume a sub officer, or two, cadged a 422 or 6552 by late 1944. Lack of photographic evidence doesn't equal 'it never happened'.
For our discussion, and from an artistic perspective, what are your thoughts about placing a sub patch on my new 6552? I have created a disney-esque patch for a fictional sub in an historical novel for which I supplied some technical and uniform advice. Book to be released in a month or so, then the patch can go public.
Has anyone seen any submariners with leather flight jackets (specifically leather, not the blue or od/khaki deck jacket)? Any name plates or patches?
Barring actual photographic evidence, and barring telling me to piss off, bugger off, and/or sod off, what are your votes for placement of this rare and highly imaginative objet d'art? Patch is the usual 5".
Mahalo nui loa to all for your thoughtful thoughts.
Jack de un Ojo

 

[MikeyB-17]

Fascinating - that's one I hadn't encountered before. Have you seen multiple examples with this seam down the middle of the back, or could this have been a one-off?

@MikeyB-17, is this the extra seam you're talking about?

That’s it. AFAIK only Irvin B Foster C series jackets had it-had one myself, others including Jorge have confirmed it. I also had one of the seam down the middle jackets-a long time ago, somebody who knew said it was a PX jacket-made on the same production line but not destined for issue.

 

[mulceber]

That’s it. AFAIK only Irvin B Foster C series jackets had it-had one myself, others including Jorge have confirmed it. I also had one of the seam down the middle jackets-a long time ago, somebody who knew said it was a PX jacket-made on the same production line but not destined for issue.

Do you happen to have a photo of the one with the seam down the middle? Jeff posted his version above, but I'd like to find a copy without the photobucket watermark on it.

 

[ZuZu]

BTW- the irvin B Fosters also had that weird zipper anamoly (zippers are often short and don't go to bottom of zipper box)- is it covered in the thread?
Examples:

 

[mulceber]

It isn't, but it's something Burt and I have noticed before as well. I'll add it to the list of changes. As you can tell, our focus in 2.0 was heavily on improving M-422 through 55J14. Most of the changes to the sections on the later G-1s just amounted to fixing the contract data using Full Gear.

 

[B-Man2]

This is sort of on topic, but maybe not…
I have three G-1s that are all made with a factory issued Dynell collar. You can see the tags below . One is a Ralph Edwards the other an Imperial that some brain trust cut the tag in half and a Brill Bros. All of the jackets are in excellent condition however I’m on the verge of having the collars replaced with vintage mouton that will really make the collars pop in the natural sunlight and enhance the look of the jackets . My question is ;
will replacing the collars with something other than the issued Dynell detract from the values of the jackets because it’s not an original jacket any longer or will it enhance the values of the jackets. My thoughts are that while it will make the jacket look much better, a true collector will know that the jacket has been messed with and that will detract from its value. I’d like some opinions please .

 

[mulceber]

I tend to think that giving it a real mouton collar will diminish the value. Perfectly reasonable thing to do if you want real fur on the collar and don't want that dusty gray dynal...but once you change it, it's no longer original.

 

[Chandler]

The question is, I guess, are these later G-1s going to appreciate in value as much as the early ones?

Another question would be, how often do you wear any of them and do the dynel collars really look that bad? Maybe it's only a case of you knowing they're not real fur and it gets into your head?

 

[MikeyB-17]

Do you happen to have a photo of the one with the seam down the middle? Jeff posted his version above, but I'd like to find a copy without the photobucket watermark on it.

Yeah I do-it’s that one in Zuzu’s post with the watermark on it! I just found the original thread after I bought it, that’s my jacket! I’m not sure if I have one somewhere without the watermark-I’ll have a look but it might take a while-working. It also, incidentally, had no USN perforation on the windflap.

 

[ZuZu]

Yeah I do-it’s that one in Zuzu’s post with the watermark on it! I just found the original thread after I bought it, that’s my jacket! I’m not sure if I have one somewhere without the watermark-I’ll have a look but it might take a while-working. It also, incidentally, had no USN perforation on the windflap.

Wasn't there talk at the time that it was a "PX jacket" ? If so- why the official label. Weird.

 

[mulceber]

Wasn't there talk at the time that it was a "PX jacket" ? If so- why the official label. Weird.

I wasn't there for that discussion way back when, but if the only evidence for it being a PX jacket was that it had the weird back seam, then that seems like pretty scanty evidence to me.

 

[ZuZu]

The question is, I guess, are these later G-1s going to appreciate in value as much as the early ones?

Another question would be, how often do you wear any of them and do the dynel collars really look that bad? Maybe it's only a case of you knowing they're not real fur and it gets into your head?

IMO- the Dynel doesn't age well- it can look pretty matted and dirty after a lot of use. That being said I think you (Chandler) are right- if these jackets do appreciate a replaced collar will be bad. I had a 48 Star from '76 with great dark goatskin and a matted Dynel collar- I loved it until the cheapo General zipper broke. It was a great wearer even in the rain. Unlike current issue A-2s I think these 70s G-1s will appreciate in value- they're the very last quality issue G-1s. I also think you're right about the psychological aspect of the Dynel collar- they actually were the color the Navy wanted and only geeks notice the fakeness.