Discussion: “A Better Fighting Garment…” - A Beginner’s Guide to the US Navy’s WWII-era and later Intermediate Flight Jackets

[B-Man2]

Well a Surface Warfare jacket would make sense, since the guy had "Waves" rather than "Wings" on his name plate (didn't know anyone outside of aviation wore them)
Honestly looked more impressive than the fuzzball collar Brown G-1s

Here’s what they look like .

Surface Warfare Officers Jackets / G2 - US Wings

The US Navy has released their new Surface Warfare Officers Jacket (SWO Jacket). Fit: Normal

www.uswings.com

 

[CombatWombat]

Here’s what they look like .

Surface Warfare Officers Jackets / G2 - US Wings

The US Navy has released their new Surface Warfare Officers Jacket (SWO Jacket). Fit: Normal

www.uswings.com

After 5 years I'll believe that was it.....though I definitely remember him complaining about the horrible humidity we live with as he was taking off the fur collar (which this isn't made for)
But he may have had a trials jacket or was high enough in the food chain to take dress regulations as mere advice......

 

[ZuZu]

I was going through the "Better Fighting Garment" thread and noticed that there's no mention in the jump from 7823 to 7823A of the complete standardization and sameness of all contracts of the G-1 starting with the A. High pockets, short body. rounded pocket flap and collat tips and everything from RE to Star to IBF to Brill to Imperial. All basically the same jacket pattern. Anybody know the history of this? Do we have the actual "plan" i.e. pattern? I'll start a new thread about this possibly. There's a direct line from this kinda ugly pattern to the modern A-2 I think...

 

[mulceber]

Hey Jeff, that's something I've always kind of heard and inferred about the A-series jackets and following - I've just never seen any documentation on it, so I didn't want to put it down on paper when I didn't know. We absolutely could add that though - something to the effect of "starting with the A-series, the different G-1 contracts are pretty interchangeable, and it seems likely that the Navy was now providing contractors with an actual pattern to follow."

 

[ZuZu]

Hey Jeff, that's something I've always kind of heard and inferred about the A-series jackets and following - I've just never seen any documentation on it, so I didn't want to put it down on paper when I didn't know. We absolutely could add that though - something to the effect of "starting with the A-series, the different G-1 contracts are pretty interchangeable, and it seems likely that the Navy was now providing contractors with an actual pattern to follow."

I thought in one of the Japanese books there was a picture or diagram of it. I'll check.

There's no doubt though that there was an official Navy pattern- and probably done by committee of both tailors and obviously NON- tailors so it ended up being boring. IMO anyway.

 

[London Cabbie]

INTRODUCTION

There have been various threads on VLJ which have listed the US Navy contracts from the M-422 to G-1 series of leather flying jackets. This thread is an attempt to pool the information into a beginners guide to sit alongside the A-2 contract dates thread as a resource on the Forum. This thread borrows heavily from an original thread named, “How to date US Military Clothing and G-1 jackets from the label” by our fellow members Dinomartino1 and Mr. Dave Sheeley ( @Maverickson ). It too will borrow heavily from Mr. Roger Moore’s original resource. We’d place on record our sincere appreciation and thanks to them for their time, effort, and scholarship on this subject.

This guide has been put together by MaydayWei, Mulceber and Lord Flashheart with input from B-Man2 and Jorgeenriqueaguilera. Together with our own research we have sought to identify and acknowledge references and sources as best we can. Putting together a beginners guide to this series of jackets has not been a task for the faint hearted and any errors or omissions are ours.

In compiling this guide we have sought advice and opinion from Dave Sheeley and John Chapman at various points of uncertainty or ambiguity. They have, without fail, kindly helped us to understand so much more about the design and evolution of the Navy’s intermediate flight jacket than we could or should include in a beginners guide. We also want to give our thanks to the people, some of them also writers for this project, who shared pictures with us of their gorgeous flight jackets: @Jorgeenriqueaguilera , @Stony, @bazelot, @B-Man2 , John Chapman, Dave Sheeley ( @Maverickson ), @mulceber , and @Lord Flashheart . This would be a very boring thread without these wonderful photos to illustrate it.

We’d also like to thank all of our fellow Forum members who have helped us with this work by sharing their knowledge. If you have more information please do share that here.

AN OVERVIEW

Discussion of jacket types in this hobby, among Navy jackets and beyond, frequently boils down to a discussion of hard and fast differences between jacket types: B-15 vs. B-15A, L-2A vs. L2B, etc. This impulse is understandable, but it actually doesn’t get us very far when discussing the earlier Navy jackets. We spent about a day trying to discover exactly what structural differences there were between the M-422 and the M-422a, and while we quickly found several different answers, all of them later turned out to be false, or only true of some contracts.

The reality is, prior to about 1960, manufacturers who won a contract to make an intermediate flight jacket for the Navy were provided with a sketch and a list of specifications that the jacket had to meet. As with the A-2 jacket, Navy contractors had latitude to make the garments as they saw fit. Provided the finished product met the specifications, nobody much cared if the manufacturers had used a particular type of stitch to sew on the pocket flaps, or had widened the pocket in order to make extra room for the pencil pocket. Deviations from the specification were regularly made and allowed. But whereas on the army side, the practice frequently was to change jacket designations only when they needed to make a real structural change to the jackets (nobody would ever mistake an A-2 for a B-10), changes to Navy jacket designations could come from as small a change as an edit to the wording of the contract for buttons. Sometimes there were real changes in materials or design, but just as frequently we’ll find cases like the W&G M-422A, which has much less in common with other jackets in that series than it does with W&G’s previous M-422 contract.

In short, when you’re looking at Navy Intermediate Flight Jackets, it pays to look less for differences between jacket designations and more for differences between contracts & manufacturers.

STRUCTURE

The evolution of the US Navy’s (USN) primary intermediate flight jacket can be traced through 12 iterations or specifications. This guide is therefore structured into 12 specifications split over 3 parts: WW2, the 50s, and the Vietnam era. At the end, there will be a short note on NATO stock numbers, and other useful links and resources on the VLJ. The specifications in chronological sequences are:

• [1] M-422 [1940]
• [2] M-422A [1940 - 1943]
• [3] AN-J-3 [1943]
• [4] AN 6552 [1943]
• [5] AN-J-3A [1943]
• [6] 55J14 (AER) [1947 - 1950]
• [7] MIL-J-7823 (AER) [1951 - 1960]
• [8] MIL-J-7823A (AER) [1961]
• [9] MIL-J-7823B (WEP) [1961 -1963]
• [10] MIL-J-7823C (WEP) [1964 - 1966]
• [11] MIL-J-7823D (WP) [1967 - 1970]
• [12] MIL-J-7823E (AS) [1971 - Present]

This thread is soon to be updated by the authors. There will be a Guide and a parallel discussion thread.

I still love this post. Especially the enhanced 2.0 version and all the hard work and effort that went into creating this.
Wearing mine in tribute…
Thankyou Gents.

 

[CK90]

@Lord Flashheart @mulceber guys, a big thank you for this, these things take time and I greatly appreciate it. Slowly working my way through 2.0 at the moment. Elevating my knowledge of Intermediate Navy flight jackets!

This has got me more excited than anything to wear my Star 55J14 when the leaves start to fall in a few months.

However, this is dangerous stuff. Already I want to jump in JC’s que for a G&F ANJ-3A, uh oh…

 

[Abyss]

I agree! Fantastic resource - thank you mulceber and Lord Flashheart for all your work! Really helpful for people new to Navy jackets to learn about them.

 

[Pilot]

I agree! Fantastic resource - thank you mulceber and Lord Flashheart for all your work! Really helpful for people new to Navy jackets to learn about them.

Can only agree 1001%.
Learned a lot here….love the two JFK G-1 versions of which I have two… love the LW Foster one…

 

[Lord Flashheart]

Thanks guys, real credit should go to @Jorgeenriqueaguilera for the great pics from his collection and to @MaydayWei who with Jan and I helped put this all together.

The trouble is ... it made the A-2 contract list look a bit brief ... for now ...

 

[tempusfugit]

A great resource, thanks!

I have been thinking about the color of these jackets. I have a G1 that is almost like chocolate milk color, and another one that is so dark it is almost black. Did the color spec change somewhere or are these just different interpretations of seal brown?

 

[mulceber]

I’m very confident it was just different interpretations of seal brown. hitting the same color across multiple tanneries would have been very difficult to do, since dyeing is a process. It isn’t just slapping whatever color you want on the leather (unless it’s pigment dyeing). Nowadays Victoria Tannery can hit whatever color their customers want, but that’s because I’m told they’ve got a computer involved in the process.

 

[Pilot]

A great resource, thanks!

I have been thinking about the color of these jackets. I have a G1 that is almost like chocolate milk color, and another one that is so dark it is almost black. Did the color spec change somewhere or are these just different interpretations of seal brown?

More recent cowhide G-1 ( from Imperial Leather mostly ) are very much like milk chocolate.
Edit: not my jacket.

 

[tempusfugit]

Wow, and I thought I hade a chocolate milk brown jacket! Amazing color on that, mine is a little bit darker. A goat brill bros D.

 

[galvestonokie]

IMO- the Dynel doesn't age well- it can look pretty matted and dirty after a lot of use. That being said I think you (Chandler) are right- if these jackets do appreciate a replaced collar will be bad. I had a 48 Star from '76 with great dark goatskin and a matted Dynel collar- I loved it until the cheapo General zipper broke. It was a great wearer even in the rain. Unlike current issue A-2s I think these 70s G-1s will appreciate in value- they're the very last quality issue G-1s. I also think you're right about the psychological aspect of the Dynel collar- they actually were the color the Navy wanted and only geeks notice the fakeness.

Interesting posts here regarding Dynel collars, appreciation. Not sure i agree that replacing a Dynel collar with real mouton would reduce the value--especially when some E model jackets did have mouton collars (I'm fairly sure). Also, i question the potential appreciation of the later G-1 series, but I've never been good at predicting the future.
IMHO, if you are going to wear the jacket, the mouton collars are way, way more comfortable than Dynel (especially after some wear). Not only is the worn Dynel unattractive, it is uncomfortable against the neck--it can be pretty gross. There is just no comparison between the appearance and feel of mouton v. Dynel.

 

[mulceber]

Interesting posts here regarding Dynel collars, appreciation. Not sure i agree that replacing a Dynel collar with real mouton would reduce the value--especially when some E model jackets did have mouton collars (I'm fairly sure). Also, i question the potential appreciation of the later G-1 series, but I've never been good at predicting the future.
IMHO, if you are going to wear the jacket, the mouton collars are way, way more comfortable than Dynel (especially after some wear). Not only is the worn Dynel unattractive, it is uncomfortable against the neck--it can be pretty gross. There is just no comparison between the appearance and feel of mouton v. Dynel.

I agree with pretty much all of this.

 

[Pilot]

100% agree… plus the plastic liner used in all post 1960 models … try to wear it in tropical countries if you are not in the breathe on deck of a Carrier sailing arround with 30 Knots…. or not near an open cargo door cruising arround with 200 Knots.
The non synthetic collar and liner are much more comfy.

 

[33-1729]

Digging through some paperwork I found a copy of the MIL-J-7823E Specification. I don't know if it has been posted before, so if this is a repeat please ignore.

MIL-J-7823E is much more detailed than the A-2 spec. The A-2 spec specifically listed only two specs, both about shipping requirements. MIL-J-7823E includes many specification references, almost two pages long, notably from the focus on quality control, materials used, and complexity of design. For example, the MIL-J-7823E Spec explicitly states the contractors had to use the government supplied patterns, supplied specific leather cutting instructions, and included specific sewing instructions too. (A copy I saw of the new A-2 Drawing 30-1415 absolutely pales in comparison.)

Before the Drawing number, like AN-6552, was used to order the jacket and not the Specification number. The Specification number would only change if required, say adding the Mouton quality spec to the AN-J-3A spec as Mouton wasn't contained in the original AN-J-3 Spec (with a leather collar). Had it been the other way around, Mouton to leather collar, the Spec number would not have needed to be changed (as on the A-2 when it went from buttoned to snapped pocket flaps - too much information, like button-hole details being okay, but not enough information being unacceptable - the latest drawing revision [same number] saying which to use). With the MIL-J-7823 Spec now containing construction details and requirements, along with nearly every other aspect for production, even subtle production changes required a MIL-J-7823/A/B/C/D/E Spec update. Not a better or worse method, just the one they wanted to use.

Most on the VLJ appear interested in jacket details, so an excerpt from the Spec is below. If anyone is interested in something specific, please let me know and I'll post. The Spec is too big to post itself (46 pages).

 

[rb3586]

Good day:
Attached is the current detailed specification, including long lengths.

 

[33-1729]

Good day:
Attached is the current detailed specification, including long lengths.

Even better. Thanks!