Spitfireace
Well-Known Member
That would be a question for the Modulators of this site.
-
When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Discussion: “A Better Fighting Garment…” - A Beginner’s Guide to the US Navy’s WWII-era and later Intermediate Flight Jackets
- Thread starter Lord Flashheart
- Start date
Spitfireace
Well-Known Member
References and guides are so much better than being blind. Making mistakes.
Spitfireace
Well-Known Member
Duh ya. I just meant easier references.
ZuZu
Well-Known Member
Two things about the new discussion thread-
1- The spec sheet for the M422 vs the M422a just adds the use of linen to the threads (silk and linen) used in the jackets. There is no mention of cotton anywhere. Are we using the experience of 2 current M422a repro makers (John Chapman and Dave Sheeley) as the basis for the view that cotton was used in that they have determined cotton was the thread used in jackets they have taken apart? Not arguing with this at all just wondering why the discrepancy in the specs and real life. Is it like the A-2 spec for a silk lining? Just dropped? Any ideas?
2. Are we sure there are 7823Ds made with pressed cowhide? I think that came with the 'E's!
1- The spec sheet for the M422 vs the M422a just adds the use of linen to the threads (silk and linen) used in the jackets. There is no mention of cotton anywhere. Are we using the experience of 2 current M422a repro makers (John Chapman and Dave Sheeley) as the basis for the view that cotton was used in that they have determined cotton was the thread used in jackets they have taken apart? Not arguing with this at all just wondering why the discrepancy in the specs and real life. Is it like the A-2 spec for a silk lining? Just dropped? Any ideas?
2. Are we sure there are 7823Ds made with pressed cowhide? I think that came with the 'E's!
mulceber
Moderator
Those are the sources I'm aware of. That being said, Dave has said elsewhere that silk thread looks noticeably different from cotton because it's more shiny. So it's not as if they're making this claim just on the basis of jackets where they've taken the garment apart and tested the threads. @Maverickson can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think someone with a practiced eye can tell cotton from silk just by taking a close look at the jacket.
Could very well be the case (and if so, we'd be happy to correct that error) - I'm not as well-versed in the later G-1s and I don't think I worked on that section. My impression was that impressed cowhide came in at around the same time as dynal collars, but that could be wrong. Does anyone else have an answer on this one?
ZuZu
Well-Known Member
I agree that sometimes it's easy to tell silk thread apart from cotton. I had a beautifully intact RW 18091 that I'm 90% sure was sewn with dark brown silk thread. Thin shiny strong.
Anyway- from The Big Guy I'm pretty sure there were some M422As sewn with cotton. Deteriorated in sun, easy to pull apart. My ETC I'm not sure of. It may have sun fade (I can't really tell) but it's definitely at this point as strong as the day it was made. It's a mystery- especially with the addition of linen into the mix.
BTW- great article- too bad in can't be made into a coffee table book with the great photos- especially Jorges!
I'll read some more- maybe a few more nits...
MikeyB-17
Well-Known Member
I feel I ought to bring up the subject of the Irvin B Foster ‘C’ series ‘extra seam’ as talked about in this thread:-
Thread 'New (or nearly so) Irvin Foster G-1'
https://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/new-or-nearly-so-irvin-foster-g-1.27603/
(Post no.8 onwards). AFAIK no other manufacturer did this, I may be nuts but I think it’s worthy of consideration for inclusion in this fabulous thread.
Thread 'New (or nearly so) Irvin Foster G-1'
https://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/new-or-nearly-so-irvin-foster-g-1.27603/
(Post no.8 onwards). AFAIK no other manufacturer did this, I may be nuts but I think it’s worthy of consideration for inclusion in this fabulous thread.
Ritchy
Well-Known Member
is the 7823E still cowhide and the label still white? I bought one recently from 1971, which I don't have yet since it was delivered to my daughter in London. I don't know what leather it is yet but it has a black label.
mulceber
Moderator
Yeah, I just stumbled upon that last night while poking around on John's CD - he points out that the E-series MOSTLY had white labels - i.e. there were a few that had black labels. Given that your jacket there is from the first E-series contract, it's not surprising that it's one of the black labels. That's an error we should follow up on.
Ritchy
Well-Known Member
ZuZu
Well-Known Member
There is also the famous Irvin B Foster with LITERALLY a seam down the middle of the back. I looked through my morgue file and sure enough I found it! Both seams maybe should be discussed- the gusset and this weird anamoly.
Irvin B Foster 'B' seam on back panel:
mulceber
Moderator
Fascinating - that's one I hadn't encountered before. Have you seen multiple examples with this seam down the middle of the back, or could this have been a one-off?
@MikeyB-17, is this the extra seam you're talking about?
Last edited:
ZuZu
Well-Known Member
I think there may be more examples. I remember it was a thing. I'm pretty sure there are a few.
John Luder
Well-Known Member
A question for all.
Have looked at numerous chats and entries here, and other fora.'That's Latin, Dahlin'. Evidently, Mr. Ringo is an educated man' Name that movie.
My new 6552 is sealbrown and I'm not going to make a bollocks of this one like the first one.
Navy aviators wore the squadron patch on the right in Korea, seemingly without exception. WWII aviators seem to have them on the right breast, with name on the left. A majority, perhaps.
Submarines had their own cartoon mascots, like the flyers. But, I can't find any photos of sub officers with leather jackets (except 1943's Crash Dive, wearing A-2s).
Let's assume a sub officer, or two, cadged a 422 or 6552 by late 1944. Lack of photographic evidence doesn't equal 'it never happened'.
For our discussion, and from an artistic perspective, what are your thoughts about placing a sub patch on my new 6552? I have created a disney-esque patch for a fictional sub in an historical novel for which I supplied some technical and uniform advice. Book to be released in a month or so, then the patch can go public.
Has anyone seen any submariners with leather flight jackets (specifically leather, not the blue or od/khaki deck jacket)? Any name plates or patches?
Barring actual photographic evidence, and barring telling me to piss off, bugger off, and/or sod off, what are your votes for placement of this rare and highly imaginative objet d'art? Patch is the usual 5".
Mahalo nui loa to all for your thoughtful thoughts.
Jack de un Ojo
Have looked at numerous chats and entries here, and other fora.'That's Latin, Dahlin'. Evidently, Mr. Ringo is an educated man' Name that movie.
My new 6552 is sealbrown and I'm not going to make a bollocks of this one like the first one.
Navy aviators wore the squadron patch on the right in Korea, seemingly without exception. WWII aviators seem to have them on the right breast, with name on the left. A majority, perhaps.
Submarines had their own cartoon mascots, like the flyers. But, I can't find any photos of sub officers with leather jackets (except 1943's Crash Dive, wearing A-2s).
Let's assume a sub officer, or two, cadged a 422 or 6552 by late 1944. Lack of photographic evidence doesn't equal 'it never happened'.
For our discussion, and from an artistic perspective, what are your thoughts about placing a sub patch on my new 6552? I have created a disney-esque patch for a fictional sub in an historical novel for which I supplied some technical and uniform advice. Book to be released in a month or so, then the patch can go public.
Has anyone seen any submariners with leather flight jackets (specifically leather, not the blue or od/khaki deck jacket)? Any name plates or patches?
Barring actual photographic evidence, and barring telling me to piss off, bugger off, and/or sod off, what are your votes for placement of this rare and highly imaginative objet d'art? Patch is the usual 5".
Mahalo nui loa to all for your thoughtful thoughts.
Jack de un Ojo
MikeyB-17
Well-Known Member
That’s it. AFAIK only Irvin B Foster C series jackets had it-had one myself, others including Jorge have confirmed it. I also had one of the seam down the middle jackets-a long time ago, somebody who knew said it was a PX jacket-made on the same production line but not destined for issue.Fascinating - that's one I hadn't encountered before. Have you seen multiple examples with this seam down the middle of the back, or could this have been a one-off?
@MikeyB-17, is this the extra seam you're talking about?
mulceber
Moderator
Do you happen to have a photo of the one with the seam down the middle? Jeff posted his version above, but I'd like to find a copy without the photobucket watermark on it.
mulceber
Moderator
It isn't, but it's something Burt and I have noticed before as well. I'll add it to the list of changes. As you can tell, our focus in 2.0 was heavily on improving M-422 through 55J14. Most of the changes to the sections on the later G-1s just amounted to fixing the contract data using Full Gear.
Last edited:
B-Man2
Well-Known Member
This is sort of on topic, but maybe not…
I have three G-1s that are all made with a factory issued Dynell collar. You can see the tags below . One is a Ralph Edwards the other an Imperial that some brain trust cut the tag in half and a Brill Bros. All of the jackets are in excellent condition however I’m on the verge of having the collars replaced with vintage mouton that will really make the collars pop in the natural sunlight and enhance the look of the jackets . My question is ;
will replacing the collars with something other than the issued Dynell detract from the values of the jackets because it’s not an original jacket any longer or will it enhance the values of the jackets. My thoughts are that while it will make the jacket look much better, a true collector will know that the jacket has been messed with and that will detract from its value. I’d like some opinions please .
I have three G-1s that are all made with a factory issued Dynell collar. You can see the tags below . One is a Ralph Edwards the other an Imperial that some brain trust cut the tag in half and a Brill Bros. All of the jackets are in excellent condition however I’m on the verge of having the collars replaced with vintage mouton that will really make the collars pop in the natural sunlight and enhance the look of the jackets . My question is ;
will replacing the collars with something other than the issued Dynell detract from the values of the jackets because it’s not an original jacket any longer or will it enhance the values of the jackets. My thoughts are that while it will make the jacket look much better, a true collector will know that the jacket has been messed with and that will detract from its value. I’d like some opinions please .
