Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

[MeachamLake]

Ah yes, you're right. Got all excited there for a second!

So are we all in consensus then - do we have at least two unidentified A-2 jackets?

1. Hap Arnold's jacket with epaulettes (?), button and loop collar closure, smaller A-1 style pockets with buttons, A-1 style single weave cuffs ?
2. Carl Spaatz's jacket without epaulettes, standard collar with no loop, single weave cuffs?

 

[Skyhawk]

Yes we were discussing the Spatz jacket earlier in another thread, but it was a mystery. Now with the evidence that there was a pre production test run, this jacket is likely it. This jacket shares the features of the Goldsmith jacket with no collar snaps, double top stitched small pockets, a similar collar shape, button pockets with inset button holes, and a riveted hookless zipper with smaller rivets. So IMO a probable Goldsmith pre production run.

Just to sum up.

There is another one as well, I will dig the photo up.

Regards,
Jay

 

[Skyhawk]

Here it is. Hoyt in his early "A-2". The pocket shape is more visible here and matches the other Goldsmith jacket. All other features match the Spatz jacket.

 

[Skyhawk]

The Goldsmith labels arrived today. They came out nice:

 

[33-1729]

Using the paper trail we have there are three (3) A-2 production contracts with button pocket flaps based upon the specs at that time. Samples from the relatively large Security 32-485 contract have known survivors (post #18), so the other two are still missing. We suspect that the jacket worn by Hap Arnold in post #54 & enlarged in post #84 is a Goldsmith 31-1897 based upon some unique features listed in post #239. And the gentleman in the middle of the picture in post #99 is wearing a possible Werber 32-6225 based upon typical Werber features.

There were pre-production jackets used for the A-2 service test and we suspect that may be the one worn by Spaatz as the epaulets are in the production spec, but not on his version as shown in post #154. This is a stretch as service test items may have been tested in a lab and never used.

A point to remember is the government contracts follow a standardized procedure. We don't have the A-2 service test info, but the A-1 service test info below is insightful. Briefly, the government gets some samples for test then the production contracts follow. Note the sample sizes for the A-1 pre-production test was two to four jackets per vendor and not twenty five. More likely they needed some production A-2’s fast for a presentation or reveal and Goldsmith was able to do it in time.

P.S. It is interesting to see Guiterman Bros. (St. Paul, Minn.), purchased by Gordon & Ferguson in 1928/29, even supplied one "Domestic cape sheepskin" jacket for the A-1 service test - Were A-1's made of African capeskin?

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Both pictures of Spatz on this page appear to show a small dark shadow at the head of the left sleeve.............high set epaulette? Sure looks like that to me, once could be a lighting affect but twice?

 

[Skyhawk]

Domestic [/B]cape sheepskin" jacket for the A-1 service test - Were A-1's made of African capeskin?

Really cool stuff! Yes the jackets are purported to be made from African Capeskin. I don't know other documentation of this. This seems to confirm it with the stipulation "domestic Cape Sheep skin" on the one. It would follow that all the rest were African Capeskin.

What is particularly interesting to me is that they had samples made of Calf skin as well. Also G&F made a "Tan" and a "Brown" sample. News to me! And they just called it "Brown" not seal, or dark, or light, or russet, just brown.

 

[Skyhawk]

Both pictures of Spatz on this page appear to show a small dark shadow at the head of the left sleeve.............high set epaulette? Sure looks like that to me, once could be a lighting affect but twice?

I think that is the side of the rank patch we are seeing there. It doesn't appear to go across the shoulder and the protruding spot is the size of a rank patch or pin. Note the picture of Hoyt below. I believe it's the same model of jacket. No epaulets just the rank markings.

 

[MeachamLake]

A point to remember is the government contracts follow a standardized procedure. We don't have the A-2 service test info, but the A-1 service test info below is insightful. Briefly, the government gets some samples for test then the production contracts follow. Note the sample sizes for the A-1 pre-production test was two to four jackets per vendor and not twenty five. More likely they needed some production A-2’s fast for a presentation or reveal and Goldsmith was able to do it in time.
View attachment 6759

Fascinating. Where is this service test info from? I'd love to have a dig around and see if there's any more documentation out there...tried the National Archives site but couldn't bring anything up.

Regarding the location of drawing 30-1415, has anybody actively made any enquiries about finding this before? It seems like such a critical bit of history that has just gone missing...what a shame.

 

[33-1729]

The National Archives has a quite a bit of stuff on the A-1 & A-2, but it may not be online requiring an in-person search. They can create paper or electronic copies by request. I have been searching for the 30-1415 drawing with the great National Archive staff, but it hasn’t been located yet. I'm still looking and will post whatever I find. When I finally got a copy of the 94-3040 A-2 specification for this forum it had to be declassified first (Aug 1, 2017!), so it can take some time (many months).

I highly recommend Mr. Eastman’s excellent reference book “Type A-2 Flight Jacket Identification Manual”. While his book is focused on A-2 history it also contains more about the A-1 in a few pages than I’ve seen anywhere else.

 

[MeachamLake]

The National Archives has a quite a bit of stuff on the A-1 & A-2, but it may not be online requiring an in-person search. They can create paper or electronic copies by request. I have been searching for the 30-1415 drawing with the great National Archive staff, but it hasn’t been located yet. I'm still looking and will post whatever I find. When I finally got a copy of the 94-3040 A-2 specification for this forum it had to be declassified first (Aug 1, 2017!), so it can take some time (many months).

I highly recommend Mr. Eastman’s excellent reference book “Type A-2 Flight Jacket Identification Manual”. While his book is focused on A-2 history it also contains more about the A-1 in a few pages than I’ve seen anywhere else.

Brilliant - please do keep us posted. Fingers crossed the drawing is indeed out there - it will be quite the coup if it's uncovered!

Have you come across the existence of any materials relating to any of the cold weather jackets? B-3, D-1, B-6 et al?

 

[33-1729]

I've found a few books on the cold weather jackets based on some posts I've seen here. I'd suggest going straight to the source (Roughwear et al) and ask for their recommendations.

For the A-2 my Eastman book is falling apart from use and none of the others are. Just saying ...

 

[Geeboo]

1 thing seems unmentioned : what zipper to use in Goldsmith; #5 or #7 ? Brass or nickel ? What slider shape ? Grommet [open end] as in SAT or rivet [close end] as in Werber ?
Say the original zip used 1st, then the zip to be used in replica

 

[Geeboo]

I am not sure if it had been discussed: How to spot a SAT 32-485 vs Werber 32-6225 ? I can only guess 1 : Werber has inclined shoulder line, thus epp, towards the back, SAT has normal straight should line, thus epp. What else ?
What zipper was used in Werber 32-6225 ?

P.S. The slider of SAT is not exactly as the red circled.
SAT used a doublehook with a clip at the top of slider, smaller circle hole, #7 nickel zip; the cut-out around that doublebook is trapezium in shape- not rectangular.

 

[zoomer]

1 thing seems unmentioned : what zipper to use in Goldsmith; #5 or #7 ?

What was used in the B-1 fleece jackets at the time (Drawing 31-2412)?
Might that have been a #7 Talon? Wasn't the same zip used in the Werber 33-1729?

One assumes the extra short bell pull in that period. I'd think the zips on a sleep lined horse would be riveted too. Grommets wouldn't hold such thick material together so well, and would necessitate a punch thru said thick material, instead of just an awl, hammer and anvil.

Detailed pix are lacking online, due to rarity and also because this type of jacket is usually displayed zipped and belted.

Here are zipper details from my (unfortunately too small ) Buzz Rickson's B-2. The B-2 carried the same drawing number and Buzz's "house version" is supposedly copied from Switlik, who also built the B-1. Front zip is riveted; sleeve zips might be too, but concealed.
front
sleeve
(click to enlarge)

 

[zoomer]

View attachment 6764 I am not sure if it had been discussed: How to spot a SAT 32-485 vs Werber 32-6225 ? I can only guess

Until a 6225 is found - if it ever is - that's all anybody can do!

Some of us were opining about pocket flap shapes on the various button-flapped jackets seen so far in photographs. Maybe that's a clue. If the flap resembles a Werber flap, but with a buttonhole, it may be a 6225...

 

[Skyhawk]

The zipper bottom is visible in the photo below. It has small grommets. You can see the SAT jackets next to it and the grommets are bigger. The Jacket is 3rd from the right (Misidentified). I think it was a Talon Hookless by the look of the bottom in this photo and stoppers from the other photo.

It would be a size 5 or 7. I believe the puller is the one on the far left below. Goldsmith would have been putting this jacket together in 1930 or 31 at the earliest. The other Talon pullers were not made until after that. If Goldsmith also made the pre production jackets, they would have had the zips on hand already.

Regards,
Jay

 

[Geeboo]

1) who wrote words "SAT" in the photo ?
2) I would have guessed the circle one is a Werber due to a) inclined epp 2) collar shape 3) "reflective" rivet. Only closed end rivet will reflect light, hollow open ended grommet usu. do not Rivet head used by werber is also larger than grommet - harry's, the 4th from left
3) Good point about the mid-30 vs early 30's, I have never though of that.
4) 32 vs 31 is not much of a difference but SAT used a zipper that is "called" mid-30s in 1932 . So, Goldsmith might have used that as well ????? BUT your assertion is equally persuasive

 

[33-1729]

View attachment 6773 View attachment 6772 1) who wrote words "SAT" in the photo ?
2) I would have guessed the circle one is a Werber due to a) inclined epp 2) collar shape 3) "reflective" rivet. Only closed end rivet will reflect light, hollow open ended grommet usu. do not
3) Good point about the mid-30 vs early 30's, I have never though of that.
4) 32 vs 31 is not much of a difference but SAT used a zipper that is "called" mid-30s in 1932 . So, Goldsmith might have used that as well ?????

Geeboo, you have a good eye! Check out post #54 with Brig. Gen. Westover in the center of the higher resolution photo. Likely a snap-pocket Werber 33-1729, though we’d expect a button-pocketed Werber 32-6225 would look quite similar.

We have no idea what Goldsmith used, so no choice is right or wrong, but I like the Hookless zipper reproduction on my ELC 33-1729 as Skyhawk (Jay) recommends.

 

[Geeboo]

Tks for the compliment. But without addressing the issue, no one will talk about it & hence no truth. We all never see a Goldsmith right ?