Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

[zoomer]

A likely reason for discontinuing the retail labels: Werber was a government-only contractor. They didn't use trademarks or tradenames like Goldsmith or Security. So, for orders 32-6225 and so on, they (and every succeeding maker, 'cause Werber had all the A-2 business for several years) just added their name to a standard government label format.

Photoshop conception–label NOT known to exist

 

[Skyhawk]

View attachment 6610

Let's not turn this intellectual work into one

Not my intentions at all. I am just posting my findings. We have all done research on this and we are all trying to hammer out the details in this thread. I actually think your jacket looks fantastic and I liked it without hesitation when I first saw it. I am truly interested in what you make as your reproduction and how it turns out. As a colleague, not a competitor.

As far as the label goes, I am happy knowing that mine was actually in the factory being used at the time the jacket was produced. For me this evidence greatly improves the chances it was the one used. I am not discounting other theories, but for me the evidence points to the white label.

Regards,
Jay

 

[MeachamLake]

Does anybody have a copy of the original specification document screencapped in the initial post? I'd love to read it if so!

 

[2BM2K]

The documents can be found at the Acmedepot http://www.acmedepot.com/a2jacket/a2hist.html

It is the A2 Spec Documents pdf

 

[zoomer]

of course, the thing everybody's wanting most of all is Drawing No. 30-1415...still MIA.

 

[MeachamLake]

I wonder why they only gave Goldsmith such a minuscule contract? 25 seems like such a tiny number that it couldn't have been anything other than a test run. Presumably they weren't satisfied with the quality produced and/or Goldsmith's couldn't scale up to produce the volume needed...that could explain why they never got any more done?

My only other theory around this is that since the document indicates the specification for the A-2 was finalised at the Materiel Command from Wright-Patterson AFB, they simply went to the nearest Ohio-based manufacturer of leather goods to get some initial prototypes made? That might explain the rather odd choice in selecting them, since they weren't exactly experienced in garment production at the time.

 

[CBI]

this all looks good, can't wait to see the results.

 

[Geeboo]

Hi Ken,
Can you share how to do the button holes " hidden stitching" - I cannot see stitches there
Skyhawk: IMO, I Suspect the dash line at the cross do not exist, just a fine line that is so thin that it appears to be a dash line - the same be observed at the upper inner circle as well. Also, the "S" & "G" font needs to be fine-tuned.

 

[Silver Surfer]

the mia werber idea looks intriguing, the label is just about right,, imho.

 

[Skyhawk]

View attachment 6628

Skyhawk: IMO, I Suspect the dash line at the cross do not exist, just a fine line that is so thin that it appears to be a dash line - the same be observed at the upper inner circle as well. QUOTE]

No it's not an illusion, It's there:

Regards,
Jay

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

View attachment 6628 Hi Ken,
Can you share how to do the button holes " hidden stitching" - I cannot see stitches there
.

Are either of the two examples on the right your work?

 

[Geeboo]

no. just capped from website

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

no. just capped from website

PM sent

 

[33-1729]

There's no doubt Goldsmith Sons Co. used an iron cross trademark symbol from 1929-1932, or when the 31-1897 A-2 contract was awarded. There were some variations during this timeline, such as the line or dotted line versions. Personally, I prefer the castle battlement version above the dotted line version shown in post 214, but who knows if they used one in their A-2.

Looking through the 94-3040 specs I see they requested single French fell seams (#4 below). If it wasn't Hap Arnold's jacket I would have guessed a civilian version.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

French Fell Seams?????????

https://www.google.com/search?q=fre...KEwj8pvzVlqjcAhWIKsAKHS8NB5cQ9QEIKzAB#imgrc=_

Now that is really odd, this is a method for sewing cloth, shirts especially, when overlocking is not required or avoided for nicer finish, also used extensively on Jean seams but on leather, hardly!!
Not a good idea, very difficult due to the thickness of even lightweight leather, lumpy and untidy seam, I have seen this used occasionally on high grade unlined Suede jackets from the 1930s, the French Seam makes for a very tidy seam inside a garment in cloth or on a thin suede but a complete waste of time in a lined jacket

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

French Fell seam would entail stitching through up to TWELVE thicknesses of material while top stitching the armhole as it crossed over the epaulette at the head of the sleeve. Pass me a new needle please :>)

 

[33-1729]

French Fell Seams?????????

https://www.google.com/search?q=french+fell+seam&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=T7E-Fl0SIT0MiM%3A%2CYXUAUq83BUvKWM%2C_&usg=__ZZrU_S0J6aYbRAWfcdqHPNT26Wg=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8pvzVlqjcAhWIKsAKHS8NB5cQ9QEIKzAB#imgrc=_

Now that is really odd, this is a method for sewing cloth, shirts especially, when overlocking is not required or avoided for nicer finish, also used extensively on Jean seams but on leather, hardly!!
Not a good idea, very difficult due to the thickness of even lightweight leather, lumpy and untidy seam, I have seen this used occasionally on high grade unlined Suede jackets from the 1930s, the French Seam makes for a very tidy seam inside a garment in cloth or on a thin suede but a complete waste of time in a lined jacket

In the A-2 spec 94-3040 documents from the National Archives they have a copy dated October 20, 1931 as shown in post #254 above that strikes out lines 5 & 6 in section III, while also striking out "welt" and adding "fel" in 4. (It also strikes out "silk, spun" in section I.1, though confusingly says "silk lined" in section II.1). A later version dated August 18, 1932 doesn't included lines 5 & 6 in section III that were struck out in 1931 and uses the term "welt" again. The August 18, 1932 version also has silk struck out or excluded everywhere.

Is it possible the first Goldsmith 31-1897 used a French fell seam (1931), then immediately went to a single French welt seam beginning with SAT 32-485 (1932)? I know some here have much better eyes than I. What do you see?

It is confusing as silk is struck out everywhere else in the 1931 version, but I wonder if the first 25 Goldsmith had a "light brown" filament silk (not cheaper spun silk) lining given the conflicting guidance in the 1931 hand-marked-up version (hey, you missed a spot). Clearly the SAT 32-485 did not. Doubtful given the extreme cost of silk vs cotton, but if they only made twenty five ...

 

[Skyhawk]

Looks like not a FF seam on the inside arm seam. Also that seam where the arm is attached doesn't look like a FF seam. It bulges up and doesn't look to have the extra line of stitching. I doubt they used FF seams. Maybe that's why the rejection and only 25 made. Then the gov realized when working with SAT that the seams were impractical and un necessary and changed the spec.

Regards,
Jay

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

The first A-2 seemed to be designed by a committee, none of whom could have known anything about tailoring.

Wrong Seams specified
Poor choice of Button Hole style (or did Goldsmith misunderstand "leather facing"?)
Dithering on lining
Choosing a glove maker to make the first contract

One the credit side to Goldsmith, lovely pocket and the nicest zipper fitting method

 

[MeachamLake]

Are french fell seams more commonly used on any type of sporting equipment/sportswear that Goldsmith's may have made at the time?

I'm more convinced that the Goldsmith's batch of jackets were merely rough prototypes made to assist in the development of the A-2's specification. A rough speculative timeline could be as follows:

- Materiel Command at WP AFB contacts local sporting goods maker Goldsmiths in Cincinatti.
- They request a small run of 25 jackets be made for development purposes. At this time, there is no official spec - these jackets follow a rough specification similar to the preceding A-1 jacket, with the major differences being the addition of a leather collar and a zipper.
- Materiel Command studies the prototype jackets and debates what will and won't work. Certain senior and prominent members of the Air Force are recipients of these jackets for feedback purposes (Hap Arnold, Carl Spaatz, etc).
- After gathering feedback from these wearers and after much internal discussion, the final specification of the A-2 gets the stamp of approval it needs to go into initial production. Quirky features of the Goldsmith jacket which only existed because the specification hadn't yet been set in stone are rejected in favour of cheaper, more efficient alternatives. The french fell seams are ditched, and the A-1 style hook and button collar closure is replaced with a snap down collar, for example.
- The specification for the first "official" A-2 is finalised. Manufacturers are contacted to bid for this work.
- Security Aviation Togs Limited wins the contract for the first batch of 600 or so jackets which go into limited service with select Air Force personnel.
- Further details are refined after wider feedback from the SAT jacket.
- A bigger order for A-2 jackets is put out to the market. Werber wins this next contract.

Etc, etc. All speculation at this point