Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

[Roughwear]

And of course the throat latch is not the same shape as found on later A-2s!

 

[Geeboo]

yeah, the black metal throat latch, you don't observe that very beginning ? There are plentiful here in Hong Kong

 

[Skyhawk]

Yes I saw that when I discovered the collar loop way back in post #52, and proposed the theory that this is the Goldsmith jacket. It just wasn't mentioned yet and I thought it would be of interest to those who had not noticed.

Those are blackened but not the right type.

-Jay

 

[33-1729]

Pic found by me, dated by San Diego History Center.
Rockwell Field, Coronado, Calif., May 7, 1932.

(This thread is already getting too big and involved to keep track of...)

It doesn't. Ross Hoyt's probably doesn't either. Both collars look very flexible, even flimsy, as they'd look if they lacked securements of any kind and - I feel - as if they were made of capeskin or something similar in weight and thickness to A-1 skins. (Maybe the calfskin mentioned in the A-1 service test document!)

I think Zoomer is right.

A big change from the A-1 to the A-2, prototype or in production, was going from [African!?] capeskin to tougher horsehide. I recall reading a comment from the time and they joked it took ten years to break in a new horsehide A-2. Consider we’re looking at new, or relatively new, jackets, the ones worn by Hoyt or Spaatz look like supple capeskin, not stiff horsehide – Meaning? They are not an A-2 jacket.

At this stage of the Air Corps people may have used their own jackets. Maybe they liked zippers, as on the upcoming A-2, and used capeskin as it was popular at the time. Who knows? But I think the Hoyt and Spaatz jacket aren’t an A-2 pre-production, but jackets made of capeskin. By contrast, Hap's jacket looks like stiffer horsehide.

I'm also impressed they used African capeskin on the A-1. They knew how to do it right.

 

[Skyhawk]

I doubt this because the jackets are identical and they have rank and squadron patches attached. I think the pre production prototype theory makes more sense. If they were still developing the specs, they may have not specified the hide type at this point.

-Jay

 

[2BM2K]

In this photo VIP's are present and the occasion was a review of the 1st Bombardment Wing. I doubt that Spaatz
would have been allowed to wear non-regulation uniform.

 

[33-1729]

Even when doing pre-production tests the specification needs to be 100% complete, otherwise every vendor supplies their perspective instead of what you specifically want to test. There may be a very minor tweak from the service test to production, but anything more than that and you have to test it again to make certain it works. The A-1 service test document is about capeskin and still, some vendors try to throw something in (calf or the “domestic” capeskin mistakes): Imagine how it would go without an explicit spec? No doubt, the A-2 service test requested horsehide and zipper, otherwise another test would have been required.

 

[2BM2K]

"The A-1 service test document" is from the Eastman manual. This looks to be a list vendors submiting jacket samples
as part of their bid for a contract.

As there are both cape skin and calf skin listed then that would mean either is suitable for an A1 jacket.

The Spaatz and Hoyt jackets are consistant with horse hide.

 

[2BM2K]

Another point that has not been raised. Look at the throat latch. It is BLACKENED. Have not seen that before. In fact where can I get a blackened throat latches? May have to make my own

As this is the first and a small A2 contract to use throat latches then they may have had to source them from another type of garment that uses
eye and hook fastenings.

 

[zoomer]

As John J says, it’s a curiosity for a small number of enthusiasts, but not for a wider group. Look back over threads, we had the same excitement over the SAT, despite the blousy fit of the torso. Loads of members coveted one as the ‘first’ A-2; RMcC and GW offer/offered them - how many were made/sold/worn? I saw more sold on as a result of the unflattering shape than have been kept/worn regularly.

IIRC, all GW Securitys were made unusually short* because the one example JC owned was that way. But look in photos and you see the Security bloused and longish, on airmen of average or better height.

Perhaps if JC had used pix as well as the single original in his care, the SAT repop might have had a better chance. It's like the historian who refuses to consider secondary sources that may offer a clearer perspective.

And no one has really defined unflattering. We need to be sure it isn't just an unwitting way of
saying non-WW2 fit.

*If anyone has a GW Security of normal length, size 46, I'll buy it! Name your price.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

And that one is the clincher. Arnold looks sharp and well dressed in his more refined A-2, whereas he looks like a sack of spuds (potatoes) in his Goldsmith...

He should have asked the Quartermaster for his correct size,

 

[33-1729]

I keep thinking of standard government contract, spec, and vendor terminology, but we may not be all on the same page. Just to be certain a typical government contract goes very simply as …

1. Start with what you have (A-1 production)

2. Run test beds on “Frankenstein” samples to see what features work best

3. Complete what are believed to be the final specifications, then have vendors make pre-production samples for service tests

4. Make very minor tweaks to spec, if any, and submit for production or go back to “Frankenstein” samples and redo steps 2., 3. & 4.​

Doing this so many times I learned getting the original spec right before the pre-production samples are run pays off big in the end (it's almost like hearding cats). The closer the "Frankenstein" samples are to the final production version the better.

If the Spaatz and Hoyt jackets are capeskin I don’t believe they’re pre-production or production A-2 jackets. They may be a “Frankenstein” samples, but that is neither an A-1 or A-2 jacket.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I keep thinking of standard government contract, spec, and vendor terminology, but we may not be all on the same page. Just to be certain a typical government contract goes very simply as …

1. Start with what you have (A-1 production)

2. Run test beds on “Frankenstein” samples to see what features work best

3. Complete what are believed to be the final specifications, then have vendors make pre-production samples for service tests

4. Make very minor tweaks to spec, if any, and submit for production or go back to “Frankenstein” samples and redo steps 2., 3. & 4.​

Doing this so many times I learned getting the original spec right before the pre-production samples are run pays off big in the end (it's almost like hearding cats). The closer the "Frankenstein" samples are to the final production version the better.

If the Spaatz and Hoyt jackets are capeskin I don’t believe they’re pre-production or production A-2 jackets. They may be a “Frankenstein” samples, but that is neither an A-1 or A-2 jacket.

That's pretty much how we produce a new line at Aero, from memory only our Shackleton remains unchanged from day one

 

[Dr H]

And no one has really defined unflattering. We need to be sure it isn't just an unwitting way of
saying non-WW2 fit

I’m not an advocate of the sausage skin school of WW2 fit, Paul, but equally if it looks like there’s room for growth when entering the third trimester...then it’s too big (and those extremes are both unflattering IMHO).

 

[Dr H]

He should have asked the Quartermaster for his correct size,

And he might have had the clout to get it...

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

And he might have had the clout to get it...

Only after he posted a pic on the noticeboard at HQ with the sub title, "How does my jacket fit"
No forums in those days :>)

 

[MeachamLake]

Only after he posted a pic on the noticeboard at HQ with the sub title, "How does my jacket fit"
No forums in those days :>)

LOL!

Hap Arnold famously stated that he got rid of USAAF leather jackets in 1943 because "I just couldn't find a damn one which flattered my figure".

 

[Technonut2112]

There aren't many A-2 contracts which aren't blousy by pattern. The A-2 jacket by DEFINITION is a 'blouson', no escaping that fact:

A blouson or blouse jacket is a coat that is drawn tight at the waist, causing it to blouse out and hang over the waistband.

I understand that folks pay a lot of $$ for our cherished reproductions, and want their fit to look a certain way, BUT.. IMO, after many years of photographic research of wartime A-2's being worn, the snug, fighter pilot look is dwarfed by the amount of loose, blousy, 'working' fits across-the-board. Personally, if I see pics of repro A-2's being worn, and there's no blousing, it simply does not look authentic to me after years of staring at 1000's of pics till bleary-eyed..

Just look through JC's wear pics on his site.. Patterns followed pretty much without compromise, and lo-and-behold, MOST ALL contracts with exception of a couple blouse around the waistband, and have larger upper sleeve circumference than most here would like in an A-2, judging by what I see to be the consensus of a 'desired' fit here. My GW RW 27752 is patterned to have some blousing, and allows a pretty much FULL, comfortable range of movement.. I can sit and lean forward without the knits riding up over my trousers, and I can layer a C-2 sweater under if desired. Wow, whodathunk one would want to grab some extended wear in the colder months? The AAF who designed the sweaters and vests to be worn under the A-2, that's who. I also have no interest in attempting to look like a 55 year old fighter pilot in an overly snug, short jacket. I'll leave that to our Japanese friends. Comfort is king, and most original patterned contracts offer that comfort if the correct tagged size is chosen.

Truth be told, not many here would want to wear an original if they could for other reasons besides fit.. The color wasn't these 'walnut hues' and custom dye-jobs repro makers offer..Look at mint originals.. varying shades of plain, ordinary seal and russet brown. Depth in color hues took much hard wear, and I've still seen quite a few in great condition which are still plain' ol, solid seal or russet brown. MUCH thinner hides in many cases were used than would be acceptable today as well. If many folks out there shelled-out over a grand for a repro, and received what they would have during the war, I'm sure the jacket would be promptly boxed-up and shipped back.

 

[Roughwear]

MeachamLake you should have to visit this website.

https://www.leatherjacketshub.com/

What relevance does this link to modern repro civi jackets have to very early pocket flap A-2s?

 

[Persimmon]

What relevance does this link to modern repro civi jackets have to very early pocket flap A-2s?

Oh I thought that was just more Spam