BK Victory Horse™ Hide

[Anonymous]

Platon:

What is suppose to be the best feature of the Victory leather? Grain, color, or something else?

The Victory horsehide is a full grain leather of the highest quality. This quality is so expensive that is rarely seen.
In all my years in the hobby, as a jacket fan, I have not come across a better leather. The local tanneries who have seen it said it's extraordinaire. We have enquired at various tanneries in Italy hoping to find the same thing cheaper but when they hear what it is about they refuse to continue discussions as neither can match it nor can compete with the tannery that produces it.

So it's value has to do with the quality of the raw material, the veg. tanning method and process involved to give the final result. Its appearance is natural, grainy, and it is soft and supple to the touch, making the garment very comfortable.
Also, the finish is such that it will soon develop nice patina.

The color is not WWII accurate. We had to go with the tannery's own seal and dark seal and developed the russet as their russets were far apart from what we wanted. The tanneries are reluctant to drop their colors over other colors. The reason is they have color recipes that they have tested for years and they know how these colors react with the skins. If they must change, they must experiment first on leathers, make 1-2-3- or more unsuccessful attempts before they get it right. Normally they do not want the trouble of doing all that so they push customers to select from whatever color is readily available. Of course, if Ralph Lauren comes with a huge order, they 'd make whatever color he wants no problems, but we aren't Ralph Lauren yet.

Sure, you understand that the situation will be different if we ask them to dye the skins with pigment color (spray painted a la Gibson & Barnes). But that is for the cheap stuff. In that case, they can make whatever color. But nobody wants to dye the full grain leather with pigment. It's like ruining it. Think of painting a Ferrari with brush and roller. That kind of thing.

Also, there is veg tanned and there is veg tanned. The methods, procedures and recipes tanneries used to tan the leathers are trade secrets. Tanneries never reveal them. It's their competitive advantage.
This means, if 2 tanneries work on the same leathers, one can produce superior result that the other.

After tanning, it's also the finishing, which plays an important role.
Our tannery is doing a great job, clean job. Look inside the pocket to see the back side of the hide. It's so high quality, almost like suede. We could make double face jackets with that thing, ha ha.

Lastly, the whole process from start to finish is entirely made by hand, so that increases the price even more.

I doubt that any other jacket maker in the world uses full grain hides. Most high quality makers use top grain leathers which differ greatly in appearance and rank no 2 after full grain.

Also, the Italian guy from the tannery was laughing when I showed him the Japanese horsehide and told him it's considered to be the best in the world....

 

[unclegrumpy]

the Italian guy from the tannery was laughing when I showed him the Japanese horsehide and told him it's considered to be the best in the world....

Not to pick on what you are trying to do here, but in my mind I keep hearing some long dead American tanner who slipped in lower grade leather....the stuff with too much grain, scrimped on the tanning process, finishing, and dyes, and cheated the U.S. Government at every opportunity, laughing even harder.

 

[Anonymous]

my guy laughed discreetly

 

[unclegrumpy]

my guy laughed discreetly

Probably in too much foot pain from those $2500 designer shoes to do anything much more....

 

[Anonymous]

nah those are more comfy than aerosoles

 

[virgil-hilts]

Think you that the tannery in the years of war looked for the perfection ?

 

[Anonymous]

for the price you pay, what do you prefer to get? the cheapo/crapola leather?
or the good stuff?

 

[virgil-hilts]

I think in the years of war , the tannery not look that the quality of the leather ....

 

[Anonymous]

true.
are we in the years of war now?

 

[virgil-hilts]

But I not do not dispute your magnificent work

 

[Anonymous]

I didn't say you did

 

[chamboid]

But we are not talking about whether the tannery looked for the best leather, they used what was available, which was veg tanned leather. The production methods were naturally better, and all hides were sources from America. Not many tanneries still produce veg tanned, and BK like R.Mccoys and B.Rickson is using Italian leather wildly undisputed as a producer if leather. And if you want a jacket with grain which is good, you go for the best, why anything else?

The leather on my jacket is superb, has a character I have not seen on Aero or Eastman, and build is superb. If you're going to pay for a jacket (not have it thrown to by the Q.M) you want the best, and there are WWII jackets and there are WWII jackets, some with good leather some with bad, which would you prefer?

The same topics seems to keep coming up and the answer is personal taste.

 

[unclegrumpy]

for the price you pay, what do you prefer to get? the cheapo/crapola leather? or the good stuff?

I think you are missing the point. The vast majority of original leather was not "cheapo/crapola", but not like today's "good stuff" either.

The biggest difference I have seen in the jackets I have owned and handled....originals, Eastmans, Goodwears, and a host of others, is in the way the finish wears or has worn. Or in the case of most of the reproductions, doesn't.

The closest I have owned wear wise, was a reasonably recent production Eastman Cable, in Gary's early warhorse. My Goodwear in the medium russet Japanese pigment leather is a close second, but not that close. In both jackets the leather is the pretty "good stuff", but the finish is still probably too good compared to the originals.

I also agree there is a strong element of personal taste, and some rather rabid loyalty issues going on....which is not surprising in the battle of $1000+ jackets....especially after one shells the money out for one, two or more.

IMO, while BK has taken a nice step forward, at this point I see the finish on his new stuff to be closer to the modern Japanese and lesser Italians, than the 70+ year old Americans. Maybe this is the holy grail that can never be duplicated.

 

[chamboid]

But surely it's because those jackets are also 70 years old, and dye has faded and changed with age? or at least, as you said can't be re-created with ease anyway?

 

[unclegrumpy]

Yes, being seventy years old is part of it. But even when new, a lot of the original jackets wore differently. Many look very worn and salty in wartime photos, even when the jackets were only a year or two old. The modern leathers have tougher and longer lasting finishes, which is great for things like shoes, that in the old days took daily upkeep.

I am not a chemist or a leather expert, but I suspect much of it is in the chemical process originally used to tan the leather and the old chemical make up of the finishes and dyes. Lots has changed, and I am sure many commonly done tanning practices in days gone by are banned now. I also bet many of the original finishes and dyes had an organic base, where as the modern ones don't.

I did not say that a truly original finish cannot be recreated, I just inferred IMO that it has yet to be. I am not so sure BK has found the holy grail......maybe he has....I guess we will see after a few of his new horses get nicely broken in.

 

[Anonymous]

Very well said :!: :!: :!: :!:

 

[Anonymous]

But we are not talking about whether the tannery looked for the best leather, they used what was available, which was veg tanned leather.

I think that evidence has shown that chrome tanned was widely used. Veg tanned leathers are supposed to last longer than chrome so I guess so rotten and cracked A-2 we see on ebay must have been chrome.

I think you are missing the point. The vast majority of original leather was not "cheapo/crapola", but not like today's "good stuff" either.

I don't say they used crap leathers. It is reasonable that they must have used standard quality leathers that could pass the inspections related with mil-specs. But they went for durability, not luxurious appearance.

Anyway, what I meant by saying "for the price you pay, what do you prefer to get? the cheapo/crapola leather? or the good stuff?" is whether you want BK to sell you cheap or high quality leathers?

The modern leathers have tougher and longer lasting finishes

This is true.
I know the story of an original jacket from the veteran who sold it. He wore the jacket for 10 months only and yet the jacket is faded and all. This proves how the finishes of the time didn't last long.

This effect can be replicated today. In fact BK has already done it in some jackets sold previously.

I believe today's reproductions are meant to differ from originals in certain points.

The price of today's repros is driven by 2 things. 1) Accuracy of reproduction 2) that it's a niche market product
BK has added the high quality of the leather in the mix, for 2 reasons. 1) to give more value for the price 2) to distinguish from its peers.

 

[virgil-hilts]

Hi PLATON ,

Why you do not make two leather with two prices on your reproductions?
an example : Rough Wear 27752 Horsehide or victory horse ...

 

[Anonymous]

It's not possible, we would have to stock twice as much leather.

I do not think any other repro maker has accurate looking WWII leather though I haven't seen GW's latest hides in person yet.
I am sure no other maker has such good looking leather.

It's stunning. And you can buy it at wholesale price.

 

[Anonymous]

and the jackets it makes are perfection.

The leather color will fade easily with wear, in the same way as with originals, allowing a lighter color to show throw.

This is how the jacket looks just out of the oven.
Imagine how it will look after a little wear.