AVI LTHR Bronco updated 2019 version

[Pilot]

The dream: Someone like AVI or Shawn make an original maker horsehide A-2 repro, very close to the standards of GW or ELC, for under 400 Euros.
There will always be grading/ sizing issues (grade from one original...), and lack of availability of super authentic components (Conmar zippers)... Otherwise, to me at least, this seems possible.

and JC from GW...who can provide...lives happily with a comfortable lead time....of ???
Would be great for all ( mostly low budgets) investors/ buyers, if your dream comes through...
Furthermore, the little French artisan manufacturing Hartmann Jackets ( posts here already) does not even take orders anymore until 2022 since outbooked with all am markets/buyers...Ask them about conditions and prices....
Quality/Prestige/Glamour/Fame...etc,... ( A Jag,RR, Rolex, BMW, Maybach, Bugatti, Porsche, Merc...always sells.. a.. P, F, R, M. H, K... etc....hmmm... but cheap...)...
A few here even argue about shipping costs ( hahaha), at risk..even if shipping a “budget disguisement coat”...The real paying/buying world is a bit different....Sorry....
BTW, why almost no more high end items listed here?...just asking... ( also asking yourself)
Sorry and...again, I will be shot......

 

[Pilot]

Sorry no politics.....and just saw my ( wife’s) Cat kittens nesting on an ELC RW 27752...from the early 2010...since extremly time worn/ grainy...
Will go ( The ELC in46 RW 27752 of course) under the hammer as soon as MINI TOM&JERRY ( s.s) are off..
Nice for patina..for a first class repro...in two weeks I believe...

BTW a few AVI A-2 and others on Crapbay ...take and enjoy the bargain...sure a steal for all the budget fans...Please support AVI...

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Wow................this is getting really hard to follow

Bottom Line as I see it and as I said from the moment I first rcommended Shawn for budget A-2s and got slagged off by one and all on VLJ for my trouble is this.................
He's at least Shawn is making his own jackets, not "buying in" Philip Green style from The Sub Continent and passing them off as his own at treble the price

Despite all the ridiculous price increases and Charlie's War & Peace shpiel, one has to have more respect for ELC than for AVI, as for Aero? I wish we had more A-2 production but not enough to go down the "Third World" route

 

[B-Man2]

Wow................this is getting really hard to follow

Bottom Line as I see it and as I said from the moment I first rcommended Shawn for budget A-2s and got slagged off by one and all on VLJ for my trouble is this.................
He's at least Shawn is making his own jackets, not "buying in" Philip Green style from The Sub Continent and passing them off as his own at treble the price

Despite all the ridiculous price increases and Charlie's War & Peace shpiel, one has to have more respect for ELC than for AVI, as for Aero? I wish we had more A-2 production but not enough to go down the "Third World" route

Ken
I agree with you on all of your statement. Here’s my thoughts.
Why would I continue to purchase goods and support a maker who is now “habitually” ( 3 times in 1 1/2 years I consider a habit) raising their prices and sticking it to me. Now before we go down the philosophical path of the maker has increasing costs , labor cost increases,
and has the right to a profit margin etc, etc,etc , I agree on all of those points. No problem they absolutely have those rights... But as a consumer I absolutely have a right to “change buses” as I see fit, and this increase is where this consumer is getting off the ELC bus. I would rather patronize your company or Headwind or another company who isn’t trying to wring my wallet dry. That’s not to say I won’t ever purchase another ELC jacket, but it will be off the resale market and not at full price from ELC. Once again just my opinion

 

[Smithy]

I thought I'd toddle by and see what was happening around here and low and behold I hear whisperings of yet another ELC price hike. I went over to Chez Hat and read the "explanation" from Charles.

What a load of complete and utter bullshit.

That bloke should have been a politician for all the obfuscation and spin that he laid on there. ELC put their prices up 3 times last year and they're putting them up again because they CAN - or at least they think they can. All that drivel Charles wrote about artisans and all that nonsense meant to make you think of some kinds of honest salts of the earth toiling away in a fading, noble pursuit of oldie-worldie, workmanship is quite frankly, a complete bunch of arse. ELC are whacking their prices up because they think that they can because they think that people will pay it. Charles making up a lot of horseshit about people in the UK and Japan having to charge so much is just that, utter crap. Case in point, Aero. Aero are in the UK and aren't charging that much to make vintage leather jackets.

ELC are losing some of their traditional customers because of these incredibly frequent and overall, ridiculous price hikes but they obviously think they can gain business from other markets. Charles' attempt at damage control actually makes it look like underneath it all he might be a tad worried, that's the only reason I can think why he'd write such a rambling piece of complete nonsense about artisans, and the UK and Japan, and all the rest of it. If I was him, I would be worried. His main supplier is bumping prices up right, left and centre, and he's got people on fora such at the Hat Place (and here for that matter) coming out and starting to say, "too rich for me". For every one person saying it on a forum, there's probably dozens thinking the same thing out in the real world.

As I mentioned a few weeks back, I'm not in the running for anymore leather jackets now but I do have an AVI Bronco and I have to say I like it. Ken got his knickers in a knot about them, thinking they were trying to pass their jackets off as Danish made when I suspect it was probably more a language, oversight kind of cockup. Then again maybe Morten was trying to pull a fastie and let everybody think their jackets were Scandinavian made. At the end of the day, I really couldn't give a shit either way. I'm quite happy with my one, and it was (to my mind) worth the money I spent on it and it's very good quality and that's enough for me.

If I was in the running for another A-2 I'd go for one of those Platon jobs, they really look the goods for the money you have to fork out. I love my ELC Irvin but I don't think I'd entertain spending what they're asking now. It just comes across as a rip-off now and that colours what I think of the product now, no matter how bloody good it is.

 

[B-Man2]

I thought I'd toddle by and see what was happening around here and low and behold I hear whisperings of yet another ELC price hike. I went over to Chez Hat and read the "explanation" from Charles.

What a load of complete and utter bullshit.

That bloke should have been a politician for all the obfuscation and spin that he laid on there. ELC put their prices up 3 times last year and they're putting them up again because they CAN - or at least they think they can. All that drivel Charles wrote about artisans and all that nonsense meant to make you think of some kinds of honest salts of the earth toiling away in a fading, noble pursuit of oldie-worldie, workmanship is quite frankly, a complete bunch of arse. ELC are whacking their prices up because they think that they can because they think that people will pay it. Charles making up a lot of horseshit about people in the UK and Japan having to charge so much is just that, utter crap. Case in point, Aero. Aero are in the UK and aren't charging that much to make vintage leather jackets.

ELC are losing some of their traditional customers because of these incredibly frequent and overall, ridiculous price hikes but they obviously think they can gain business from other markets. Charles' attempt at damage control actually makes it look like underneath it all he might be a tad worried, that's the only reason I can think why he'd write such a rambling piece of complete nonsense about artisans, and the UK and Japan, and all the rest of it. If I was him, I would be worried. His main supplier is bumping prices up right, left and centre, and he's got people on fora such at the Hat Place (and here for that matter) coming out and starting to say, "too rich for me". For every one person saying it on a forum, there's probably dozens thinking the same thing out in the real world.

As I mentioned a few weeks back, I'm not in the running for anymore leather jackets now but I do have an AVI Bronco and I have to say I like it. Ken got his knickers in a knot about them, thinking they were trying to pass their jackets off as Danish made when I suspect it was probably more a language, oversight kind of cockup. Then again maybe Morten was trying to pull a fastie and let everybody think their jackets were Scandinavian made. At the end of the day, I really couldn't give a shit either way. I'm quite happy with my one, and it was (to my mind) worth the money I spent on it and it's very good quality and that's enough for me.

If I was in the running for another A-2 I'd go for one of those Platon jobs, they really look the goods for the money you have to fork out. I love my ELC Irvin but I don't think I'd entertain spending what they're asking now. It just comes across as a rip-off now and that colours what I think of the product now, no matter how bloody good it is.

Hah!!.... The man rides in like a “Guardian of the Galaxy” just at the right time and says exactly what most of us have been thinking.
GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU TIM!

 

[Micawber]

Well said Tim.

Besides, any retailer is free to put their prices up to cater for those umpteen billion trillionaires in new and untapped markets who do not baulk at paying any amount for material trinkets which less moneyed mortals cannot aspire. If paying over the odds for goods satisfies some people good for them, I care not a jot, it won't make one iota of difference when they have gasped their last and shuffled off this mortal coil.

All this BS about simple items of flight clothing, original or reproduction, is not worth a jot compared to having swapped yarns, broken bread and made meaningful friendships with the people who wore the stuff the first time round '39-45. Money can't buy that, it's virtually too late for that now anyway.

 

[MeachamLake]

I still maintain that, for the quality, Aero's jackets are absolute bargains. Eastman's, whilst getting pricier, still represent very good value when compared to similarly priced 'designer' stuff which is nowhere close in terms of authenticity and quality. Remember that Ralph Lauren is currently selling a cowhide, foreign made A-2 for more than an Eastman A-2.

But don't even get me started on the Real McCoy's. £3500 for a B-3? I'd rather have a Savile Row suit for that kind of cash!

 

[Micawber]

I still maintain that, for the quality, Aero's jackets are absolute bargains. Eastman's, whilst getting pricier, still represent very good value when compared to similarly priced 'designer' stuff which is nowhere close in terms of authenticity and quality. Remember that Ralph Lauren is currently selling a cowhide, foreign made A-2 for more than an Eastman A-2.

But don't even get me started on the Real McCoy's. £3500 for a B-3? I'd rather have a Savile Row suit for that kind of cash!

Can't beat bespoke where every quirk and characteristic of your own physique has been taken into account during measure up and subsequent fittings by experienced and dedicated cutters and tailors. There is just no comparison when considering off the peg reproduction flight jackets, let alone mass produced originals. Specifying longer or shorter sleeves or torso adjustments to a standard size pattern ain't bespoke

 

[MeachamLake]

Can't beat bespoke where every quirk and characteristic of your own physique has been taken into account during measure up and subsequent fittings by experienced and dedicated cutters and tailors. There is just no comparison when considering off the peg reproduction flight jackets, let alone mass produced originals. Specifying longer or shorter sleeves or torso adjustments to a standard size pattern ain't bespoke

Definitely - I'm very lucky to have had the chance to have a bespoke suit made by a Savile Row tailor and the whole process and experience was fascinating. A very comfortable garment with every possible tiny detail to my liking was the end result.

Simon Crompton over at Permanent Style had a bespoke leather jacket made by Gieves & Hawkes a few years back. The results were very good, but, considering the astronomical price involved (£4200), somewhat underwhelming.

https://www.permanentstyle.com/2013/08/the-bespoke-leather-jacket-part-5.html

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Definitely - I'm very lucky to have had the chance to have a bespoke suit made by a Savile Row tailor and the whole process and experience was fascinating. A very comfortable garment with every possible tiny detail to my liking was the end result.

Simon Crompton over at Permanent Style had a bespoke leather jacket made by Gieves & Hawkes a few years back. The results were very good, but, considering the astronomical price involved (£4200), somewhat underwhelming.

https://www.permanentstyle.com/2013/08/the-bespoke-leather-jacket-part-5.html

Leather work requires totally different techniques, what works in cloth doesn't always translate to leather and vica versa, each has it's own methods, not to mention the need for special machines, sad to say it looks like a decent Mall jacket, worth £300 or £400 of anyone's money I suppose. They've made a mess of the sleeve head roll The collar isn't sitting right........................
That said, it's a good as job as I'd make of a tailored suit jacket

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

As a PS
I have an original vintage Bespoke 3 Piece Tweed suit made in 1946 by Bernard Weatherill of Saville Row Tweed suit,..................no NOT for me, I'm not THAT old!!!!
I haven't worn it for years as the jacket needs re-lining.
If it was a leather jacket I could do a reline in a hour or so to 100% perfection but I've not attempted the reline the Suit jacket myself as I'm not confident enough in my cloth sewing ability to feel I would do the jacket justice

 

[Smithy]

Well said Tim.

Besides, any retailer is free to put their prices up to cater for those umpteen billion trillionaires in new and untapped markets who do not baulk at paying any amount for material trinkets which less moneyed mortals cannot aspire. If paying over the odds for goods satisfies some people good for them, I care not a jot, it won't make one iota of difference when they have gasped their last and shuffled off this mortal coil.

All this BS about simple items of flight clothing, original or reproduction, is not worth a jot compared to having swapped yarns, broken bread and made meaningful friendships with the people who wore the stuff the first time round '39-45. Money can't buy that, it's virtually too late for that now anyway.

Bloody well said Steve.

I'd give all my flying jackets away in a heartbeat if it would bring back the WWII chaps I was very lucky to have known, even for just another hour. In fact any of the correspondence, signed books, photos from those chaps that I have no matter how small will always be infinitely more valuable to me than a piece of clothing.

As a PS
I have an original vintage Bespoke 3 Piece Tweed suit made in 1946 by Bernard Weatherill of Saville Row Tweed suit,..................no NOT for me, I'm not THAT old!!!!
I haven't worn it for years as the jacket needs re-lining.
If it was a leather jacket I could do a reline in a hour or so to 100% perfection but I've not attempted the reline the Suit jacket myself as I'm not confident enough in my cloth sewing ability to feel I would do the jacket justice

Can't go wrong with proper, decently tailored tweed. My hacking jacket is one of the best bits of clothing I ever bought. It wasn't cheap but it was jolly well worth every penny. I haven't gone the whole tweed suit yet but I think I'm at the age now where I could pull it off and the climate here is perfect for a good weight tweed, and when I need a new suit that's what I'll be after.

 

[Micawber]

I have two shop racks of tweed suits, jackets, shooting outfits, you name it, including a deal of vintage some of of which I can no longer squeeze into ...or can be let out any more <sigh>

 

[Monsoon]

I have two shop racks of tweed suits, jackets, shooting outfits, you name it, including a deal of vintage some of of which I can no longer squeeze into ...or can be let out any more <sigh>

Having that stuff shrink in the closet like that is enough to piss off the Pope, isn't it?

 

[Monsoon]

All that drivel Charles wrote about artisans and all that nonsense meant to make you think of some kinds of honest salts of the earth toiling away in a fading, noble pursuit of oldie-worldie, workmanship is quite frankly, a complete bunch of arse.

This is actually a true statement. The people that are interested in making items like leather flight jackets and the like are pursuing an old world style of art that not many want to do.

ELC are whacking their prices up because they think that they can because they think that people will pay it.

This is also a true statement. I noticed that things started to go sideways with ELC when they branched out into the whole ELMC/TSPTR deal. It looked like they were aiming for the whole hipster crowd and figured they could charge whatever they wanted to those knuckleheads because they would spend it.

Sure, it's a free market and they can do what they want. As I've said before, my church-going Grandma always said, "It's his cow and he can f**k it however he wants."

I doubt Gary at ELC is spending sleepless nights, worrying if I'm gonna buy an Eastman A-2 or B-3. That's fine with me; Aero makes a nice jacket, and Shawn is doing wonders with the Fivestar jackets. AVI, too.

 

[Smithy]

I've found this whole ELC "yet another price hike" thing rather amusing and was just as amused to see that Charles has responded to a post by a chap called Big J over at the Salon du Chapeau who had suggested that there might be a bit of "price-gouging" going on (that obviously raised a few hackles).

I actually wonder whether Charles has an account here and has been reading what's been going on over here as he has now in his new justification spiel completely left out any references to businesses in the UK and Japan having to charge so much (funny that) and moved onto trying to make out that ELC's profit margins are nothing compared to others.

Now he seems to be going on about Avirex, Alpha, Sears, Ralph Lauren, etc, etc and how their profit margins are greater than ELC. Well of course they're bigger than ELC, they deal with much higher volume and are less niche so their production costs are lower, Economics 101 FFS! This sort of argument has nothing to do with ELC bumping their prices up 3 times over the last year or so.

Monsoon, you've actually hit the nail on the head. The ELMC thing was the move that showed that they wanted to reposition the brand to a different and higher paying market, buoyed by the recent increase in interest in vintage workwear, arguably growing from the global hipster scene's interest in old things.

What pisses me off is how people will buy these sorts of bullshit excuses from Charles for what simply translates as pure, hyper aggressive pricing increases over short time frames because they think they can do it and because they think they can tap into a higher paying market and position their products as such.

It's actually very simple. If the price rises were purely due to as Charles says "imbalanced cost-to-profit ratio(s)" which would obviously grow out of regional and industry specific factors then a similar company such as Aero operating in the same national (and correspondingly commercially legislated, governed and subject to largely the same industry affects) environment should be having to raise prices or reduce overheads at a similar rate to sustain a (as Charles would say) balanced cost-to-profit ratio.

The reason for ELC whacking their prices up so often and so much are just because: they can; they think people will pay them; and because they want to.

All the other so called reasons are absolute bullshit.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I've found this whole ELC "yet another price hike" thing rather amusing and was just as amused to see that Charles has responded to a post by a chap called Big J over at the Salon du Chapeau who had suggested that there might be a bit of "price-gouging" going on (that obviously raised a few hackles).

I actually wonder whether Charles has an account here and has been reading what's been going on over here as he has now in his new justification spiel completely left out any references to businesses in the UK and Japan having to charge so much (funny that) and moved onto trying to make out that ELC's profit margins are nothing compared to others.

Now he seems to be going on about Avirex, Alpha, Sears, Ralph Lauren, etc, etc and how their profit margins are greater than ELC. Well of course they're bigger than ELC, they deal with much higher volume and are less niche so their production costs are lower, Economics 101 FFS! This sort of argument has nothing to do with ELC bumping their prices up 3 times over the last year or so.

Monsoon, you've actually hit the nail on the head. The ELMC thing was the move that showed that they wanted to reposition the brand to a different and higher paying market, buoyed by the recent increase in interest in vintage workwear, arguably growing from the global hipster scene's interest in old things.

What pisses me off is how people will buy these sorts of bullshit excuses from Charles for what simply translates as pure, hyper aggressive pricing increases over short time frames because they think they can do it and because they think they can tap into a higher paying market and position their products as such.

It's actually very simple. If the price rises were purely due to as Charles says "imbalanced cost-to-profit ratio(s)" which would obviously grow out of regional and industry specific factors then a similar company such as Aero operating in the same national (and correspondingly commercially legislated, governed and subject to largely the same industry affects) environment should be having to raise prices or reduce overheads at a similar rate to sustain a (as Charles would say) balanced cost-to-profit ratio.

The reason for ELC whacking their prices up so often and so much are just because: they can; they think people will pay them; and because they want to.

All the other so called reasons are absolute bullshit.

As you know I'm not a fan of the use of the term "The Hat Place", I don't think it does either the Fedora Lounge or Vintage Leather Jackets any favours
That said I love Smithy's Salon du Chapeau
I honestly can't recall the last time I laughed out loud online......................I think that was reading another of Nicola Sturgeon's policies

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Smithy said: ↑
All that drivel Charles wrote about artisans and all that nonsense meant to make you think of some kinds of honest salts of the earth toiling away in a fading, noble pursuit of oldie-worldie, workmanship is quite frankly, a complete bunch of arse.

This is actually a true statement. The people that are interested in making items like leather flight jackets and the like are pursuing an old world style of art that not many want to do.

Much as I hate to take Charlie's side, after spending this week in the factory watching the enthusiam with which eleven young kids were going about their work making leather , sheepskin and/or cloth jackets, all were under 30, most but not all were graduates from Heriot Watt Textile University, but what they all had in common was a thirst to know more and to improve with each day.

Got to agree with Smithy though, most of Charlie's shpiel was "a complete bunch of arse"

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I've just had a deja vu moment

Smithy? Did you not once take Aero to task on VLJ for raising our A-2 price three time in 17 years?