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Eastman / Aero price gouging on overseas sales
- Thread starter SuinBruin
- Start date
Jaguar46 said:
For UK buyers.
For non UK buyers...prices should drop. Perhaps not the full of the VAT deducted from current prices,...but to the point where their pricing should reflect the true cost of producing/selling to customers outside the UK.
Non UK buyers would no longer be covering a portion of UK buyers VAT fees. (Sorry to our British brothers! :lol: )
One thing...I suspect their current policy allows them to sell to their US outlet...HIstory Preservation Association;
http://historypreservation.com/hpassoci ... ding_2.php
Looks like buying from HPA ends up costing approx. the same as from Eastman directly. Couldn't do that unless HPA was getting a break from Eastman.
Deducting the VAT from their sales to HPA would allow Eastman to sell to them...and give room for HPA's profit margin.
As much as I understand that.....that's not my problem.
Dr H
Well-Known Member
ButteMT61 said:Dr H said:ButteMT61 said:
Well Scott, gonna spill?
It's not the Mars landing being a hoax, is it?
I've been "asked" to let admins handle, but I'm getting impatient. They're more worried that I posted the word "pissed" today on TFL. I am such a bad human...
You said what?
Without asterisks? :shock:
Dirty boy! Get to your room!
Oh my, the established order will fall ...
A
Anonymous
Guest
I haven't read the entire thread, but,
I think the price is what it is.
If they are pushed they only thing they can do is raise the price by 20% for domestic sales.
So some of you will have to pay X + 20% because some of you wanted to pay X - 20%.
Not fair if it happens.
I think the price is what it is.
If they are pushed they only thing they can do is raise the price by 20% for domestic sales.
So some of you will have to pay X + 20% because some of you wanted to pay X - 20%.
Not fair if it happens.
SuinBruin
Well-Known Member
So paying x + 20% isn't fair...? Uh, that's the whole point.PLATON said:
If Aero and ELC can make a profit selling a jacket at x in the EU, why can't they sell at x overseas?
Just one retail (pretax) price for all buyers. Simple. Fair. Honest.
What is BK's VAT policy?
A
Anonymous
Guest
we're saying the exact same thing, if I understand you correctly
PLATON said:
What they are currently doing is;
For UK buyers, "the base price is Y to which the VAT of (0.2 Y) is already included in the price...which gives you to total "X" that we show on our web site".
For non UK buyers what they are doing is "The base price for you folks is "X", which is shown on our web site. But no VAT!! "
A rose by any other name.......
Jeff M said:
I'm back from vacation now and not as amazed as I wish I was to find this thread still cooking ...
I'd think selling wholesale to a retailer would offer numerous opportunities to discount, which is what wholesale is all about: One customer, one large payment, minimum orders in quantity, streamlined ordering, no exchanges or returns unless faulty, etc. Retail sales would be something ELC would likely prefer vs. wholesale sales (retail is more profitable), so I can't see any reason they'd want to make the wholesale market more attractive than it needs to be.
ELC pricing, as I said before, is a bit more than HPA pricing, in MOST instances. When people make their comparison calculations with non-domestic purchases, they almost always fail to include the 3% fee banks charge to convert the dollars to the purchasing currency for the entire purchase amount that includes shipping, etc. See below:
HPA A-1 Fixed USD Prices
Check/mo w/ UPS & ins. $1, 060.50
CC w/ UPS & ins. $1, 105.50
ELC A-1 subject to fluctuating exchange rate; assumes 1.57 GBP/USD in this model
Jacket price $981.23
Fed Ex (47 GBP) $73.79
Sub-total $1, 055.02
+ 3% CC processing fee on sub-total ($31.65) $1, 086.67
+ 6% U. S. duty on domesticated leather jackets from the UK as listed on the U. S. Customs web site ($65.20) $1, 151.87
+ Brokerage fees (varies by carrier) ?
Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales
“Nasty allegations” refers to words like “gouging” and “sneaky.” There is only an opinion about activity that has been colored to conform with the meaning of these words but no hard proof of activity consistent with the meaning of these words, hence they are allegations.
Jeff M said:
“Nasty allegations” refers to words like “gouging” and “sneaky.” There is only an opinion about activity that has been colored to conform with the meaning of these words but no hard proof of activity consistent with the meaning of these words, hence they are allegations.
Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales
Contraire, counselor. “Nasty allegations” refers to inflammatory and leading words like “gouging” and “sneaky.” There is only an opinion about some activity which some want seen as conforming with the meaning of these words but there is no hard proof of activity consistent with the meaning of these words, hence “nasty allegations.”
And I most certainly did not just make up the numbers that are "patently false;" the numbers are founded on data that birthed reasonable conclusions, and my calculator really, really works:
1) Cost of leather – David Himel of Himel Bros. Leather states on his blog that he uses the same tannery (Shenki Haikaku) as GW. He has photos posted of himself w/ JC and a man from RMJP, stating they all use this same tannery and are the only companies in the world using this tannery for jacket leather (Shenki is more renowned for shell cordovan for footwear). Himel further states in an inquiry reply asking why his coats are so expensive; he says this is due to his Shenki horsehide being very costly - $10/sq. ft. ELC and GW both once responded to an inquiry I made about hide consumption, and both referenced 30 sq. ft/ A-2, on average. Most horsehide can be obtained from reputable tanneries for $4-$5/sq. ft., so Shenki is double that, and somewhat understandable when you consider the many stages needed to get a finished hide from Italy to the USA.
2) Repro zippers – I purchased several from HPA for restoration work. Charles said they were purchased for $20 each from a source in Japan a while ago. Allowing for the USD to be weaker now, I quoted $20-$25 each. I’ve also seen these zips sell on Ebay once in a while, and the starting price or BIN is usually $25. If he cares to, I’m sure Platon could comment on these same zippers he buys from Japan.
3) Hardware, thread and labels – Look at the web sites for suppliers like Ideal, Scovill, etc. and you’ll get a good idea as to the prices of hardware, though I relied on pricing from SM Wholesale. Cotton thread is easily found online @ about $4/spool of 500 yds. The GW label supplier advertises their prices online; you’d pay $0.35 for a neck label. $10 total is very generous for these parts in my workup.
4) Knit – ready-made wool knit is not hard to find. GW has used at least two suppliers, as evidenced from knit differences, and at least one of which claims to now be the same guy selling on Ebay. You can buy wholesale from this Ebay seller, and I think BK has used this source, too. Approx. $25 is the current wholesale cost in reasonable quantities; otherwise; you’ll pay retail. Other sources are available, including other Japanese sources if you want to use the power of the internet.
5) Lining – Again, just nose around textile suppliers for a cotton broadcloth. If you buy custom, the unit costs drops and you cam get something extremely close to original, but you need to buy huge quantities, which is what the bigger companies do. If you buy existing fabric, you’ll have something less authentic and pay more per yd, but the initial outlay is less. Prices vary, but my quote of $7-$10/ yd is well in line. I relied on SM Wholesale for the quote, with whom I’ve assisted in making various repro German WWII items.
But JC is a retailer, as is ELC and Aero: Retailers have totally different profit models vs. those who bill hourly, though there is some hourly component built in the manufacturing end of this game. If JC is allowed off the profit hook for choosing to travel the world for his jacket parts, why not ELC or Aero? ELC has spent a small fortune making Crown zippers and stocking knit and lining made to order that will last years and years on shelf and is worth next to nothing as it sits. And ELC was making their bones in this industry and pioneering excellent copies at great expense when there was only schlock to be found elsewhere. Where's the parallel risk taken by others? I think ELC deserves to make back their costs wherever they can. Good for the gander?
And as to the ELC “facts” from your item #3, this is a matter of interpretation and verbiage: ELC charges a price that is “equal to” the full, VAT-inclusive price on all transactions irrespective of whether or not they originate outside of the EU, but it is not necessarily a full, VAT –inclusive price on all transactions irrespective of whether or not they originate outside of the EU. Others surely want it to be understood as you wrote it, suggesting Gary E. is netting this 20% and stuffing it in his pockets via unscrupulous and nefarious business practices, but no sinister face with devil horns and bloody drool dripping from fangs can satisfactorily be made as his effigy by anyone using what we actually know to be true.
SuinBruin said:
Contraire, counselor. “Nasty allegations” refers to inflammatory and leading words like “gouging” and “sneaky.” There is only an opinion about some activity which some want seen as conforming with the meaning of these words but there is no hard proof of activity consistent with the meaning of these words, hence “nasty allegations.”
And I most certainly did not just make up the numbers that are "patently false;" the numbers are founded on data that birthed reasonable conclusions, and my calculator really, really works:
1) Cost of leather – David Himel of Himel Bros. Leather states on his blog that he uses the same tannery (Shenki Haikaku) as GW. He has photos posted of himself w/ JC and a man from RMJP, stating they all use this same tannery and are the only companies in the world using this tannery for jacket leather (Shenki is more renowned for shell cordovan for footwear). Himel further states in an inquiry reply asking why his coats are so expensive; he says this is due to his Shenki horsehide being very costly - $10/sq. ft. ELC and GW both once responded to an inquiry I made about hide consumption, and both referenced 30 sq. ft/ A-2, on average. Most horsehide can be obtained from reputable tanneries for $4-$5/sq. ft., so Shenki is double that, and somewhat understandable when you consider the many stages needed to get a finished hide from Italy to the USA.
2) Repro zippers – I purchased several from HPA for restoration work. Charles said they were purchased for $20 each from a source in Japan a while ago. Allowing for the USD to be weaker now, I quoted $20-$25 each. I’ve also seen these zips sell on Ebay once in a while, and the starting price or BIN is usually $25. If he cares to, I’m sure Platon could comment on these same zippers he buys from Japan.
3) Hardware, thread and labels – Look at the web sites for suppliers like Ideal, Scovill, etc. and you’ll get a good idea as to the prices of hardware, though I relied on pricing from SM Wholesale. Cotton thread is easily found online @ about $4/spool of 500 yds. The GW label supplier advertises their prices online; you’d pay $0.35 for a neck label. $10 total is very generous for these parts in my workup.
4) Knit – ready-made wool knit is not hard to find. GW has used at least two suppliers, as evidenced from knit differences, and at least one of which claims to now be the same guy selling on Ebay. You can buy wholesale from this Ebay seller, and I think BK has used this source, too. Approx. $25 is the current wholesale cost in reasonable quantities; otherwise; you’ll pay retail. Other sources are available, including other Japanese sources if you want to use the power of the internet.
5) Lining – Again, just nose around textile suppliers for a cotton broadcloth. If you buy custom, the unit costs drops and you cam get something extremely close to original, but you need to buy huge quantities, which is what the bigger companies do. If you buy existing fabric, you’ll have something less authentic and pay more per yd, but the initial outlay is less. Prices vary, but my quote of $7-$10/ yd is well in line. I relied on SM Wholesale for the quote, with whom I’ve assisted in making various repro German WWII items.
But JC is a retailer, as is ELC and Aero: Retailers have totally different profit models vs. those who bill hourly, though there is some hourly component built in the manufacturing end of this game. If JC is allowed off the profit hook for choosing to travel the world for his jacket parts, why not ELC or Aero? ELC has spent a small fortune making Crown zippers and stocking knit and lining made to order that will last years and years on shelf and is worth next to nothing as it sits. And ELC was making their bones in this industry and pioneering excellent copies at great expense when there was only schlock to be found elsewhere. Where's the parallel risk taken by others? I think ELC deserves to make back their costs wherever they can. Good for the gander?
And as to the ELC “facts” from your item #3, this is a matter of interpretation and verbiage: ELC charges a price that is “equal to” the full, VAT-inclusive price on all transactions irrespective of whether or not they originate outside of the EU, but it is not necessarily a full, VAT –inclusive price on all transactions irrespective of whether or not they originate outside of the EU. Others surely want it to be understood as you wrote it, suggesting Gary E. is netting this 20% and stuffing it in his pockets via unscrupulous and nefarious business practices, but no sinister face with devil horns and bloody drool dripping from fangs can satisfactorily be made as his effigy by anyone using what we actually know to be true.
Those with complaints of things “undisclosed” and “gouging” make me laugh. Firstly, “gouging” would imply an unreasonable form of pure profit, but it hasn’t been successfully demonstrated to be either unreasonable or pure profit. It MAY be gouging, and I’ll concede to not knowing what is in the hearts and minds behind the issue at hand, but there’s no doubt in my mind that a good portion of this money is dedicated to servicing overseas accounts, which includes extra paperwork and free replacement shipping.
Judging from the many finicky buyers who post here looking for the opinions of others for correctness of fit, etc., I wouldn’t be at all surprised if half of all overseas sales could be perceived by the merchants as being returned for replacement. If I recall correctly, Mark Moye stopped taking orders for A-2s while he had no problems taking orders for other Aero styles – could the [overly] finicky buyers have pushed his hand in making this call? Seems like a lot of sales were given up by Mark by divesting of those sales for A-2s, so he must have had some good reason (I’m in no way defending any illegal activities of this man). And we aren’t talking about a net profit, which is why I suggest a fair amount of this 20% number is to offset an expense and not a profit at all. How much? We don’t know. And why would it matter? This is retail profit we’re talking about, not billable hours expended. Retail profit has to account for many variables, not the least of which is a great deal of time spent not making money while trying to make sales or servicing existing or previous sales.
There is infinitely little that is truly free in business: The consumer always pays for the so-called free brochure, free maintenance, 800 number, free shipping, etc.; it seems some have lived a sheltered life if they would suggest or think contrary. Consumers have long come to expect these "free" incentives, so companies give the consumer what they want and expect. It's a shell game no different than what politicians play when talking tax cuts and they cut in one place and create new tax in another, but it's the game that must be played if you want to appease the masses and operate in the big league.
Just as I said before, there is the free shipping on a replacement and the time/cost on overseas paperwork. And, I'd think, there's a calculation made based on the ratio of overseas sales to domestic (for all we know, most of the sales could be overseas vs. domestic). You guys want to just wave your wands and dismiss all of this, but I choose to take it into consideration along with what I may not know (the omniscience of the accusers would make Kreskin proud). But be that as it may, how these merchants derived the amount to be dedicated to servicing overseas sales is something we can never know. It could well be a nice extra margin for them beyond what the average soul would think to be reasonable in servicing overseas sales, or it may be just a bit excessive, or perfectly in line, or something else altogether. But, IMO, you fellas have elected to use inflammatory language (gouging, sneaky, etc.) to stir the pot to a roaring boil on this issue beyond what reasonable doubt should dictate. I find the lynch-mob mentality and language every bit as vile as that which you accuse these merchants of doing.
Undisclosed profit? Where the hell have you ever seen any business disclose their profit margins? Other than on the tax returns of corporations, and those are heavily doctored by astute CPAs, you aren’t going to see such detail. There are consumer publications that will show what they think is a very educated picture of what a car dealer makes in the sale of a particular vehicle or an appliance store may make on the sale of a dishwasher, etc. but what some seem to be suggesting should exist from these small merchants is absurd. Tell you what – those who are demanding this transparency among these merchants should walk around at work with a sign pasted to their front and back disclosing what they get paid so as to let those with whom they interact determine if they’re worth it or not. Why don’t the lawyers disclose to their clients the portion of their billable time that goes directly in their own pockets and how many of these lawyers never stop the clock unless they really, really have no choice, or how over-billing is encouraged in many law firms? That’s gouging by reasonable definition, but no one is going to be in a position to put these pettifoggers under a microscope, so the consumers get hosed by those who can hose. The list is in no way limited to lawyers; there is a vast list of players by occupation, but expecting utopian scenarios where anyone you do business with discloses every area in which they gain some gross or net profit is foolhardy and delusional.
There is no hard evidence of “gouging,” yet that word is freely employed here. As has been said many times by cool heads here, it’s far easier and less injurious to all if you voice your displeasure by not purchasing from these merchants.
Now I finished where I left off on this thread before vacation and you guys can continue the blood letting without me ...
Saunders
Judging from the many finicky buyers who post here looking for the opinions of others for correctness of fit, etc., I wouldn’t be at all surprised if half of all overseas sales could be perceived by the merchants as being returned for replacement. If I recall correctly, Mark Moye stopped taking orders for A-2s while he had no problems taking orders for other Aero styles – could the [overly] finicky buyers have pushed his hand in making this call? Seems like a lot of sales were given up by Mark by divesting of those sales for A-2s, so he must have had some good reason (I’m in no way defending any illegal activities of this man). And we aren’t talking about a net profit, which is why I suggest a fair amount of this 20% number is to offset an expense and not a profit at all. How much? We don’t know. And why would it matter? This is retail profit we’re talking about, not billable hours expended. Retail profit has to account for many variables, not the least of which is a great deal of time spent not making money while trying to make sales or servicing existing or previous sales.
There is infinitely little that is truly free in business: The consumer always pays for the so-called free brochure, free maintenance, 800 number, free shipping, etc.; it seems some have lived a sheltered life if they would suggest or think contrary. Consumers have long come to expect these "free" incentives, so companies give the consumer what they want and expect. It's a shell game no different than what politicians play when talking tax cuts and they cut in one place and create new tax in another, but it's the game that must be played if you want to appease the masses and operate in the big league.
Just as I said before, there is the free shipping on a replacement and the time/cost on overseas paperwork. And, I'd think, there's a calculation made based on the ratio of overseas sales to domestic (for all we know, most of the sales could be overseas vs. domestic). You guys want to just wave your wands and dismiss all of this, but I choose to take it into consideration along with what I may not know (the omniscience of the accusers would make Kreskin proud). But be that as it may, how these merchants derived the amount to be dedicated to servicing overseas sales is something we can never know. It could well be a nice extra margin for them beyond what the average soul would think to be reasonable in servicing overseas sales, or it may be just a bit excessive, or perfectly in line, or something else altogether. But, IMO, you fellas have elected to use inflammatory language (gouging, sneaky, etc.) to stir the pot to a roaring boil on this issue beyond what reasonable doubt should dictate. I find the lynch-mob mentality and language every bit as vile as that which you accuse these merchants of doing.
Undisclosed profit? Where the hell have you ever seen any business disclose their profit margins? Other than on the tax returns of corporations, and those are heavily doctored by astute CPAs, you aren’t going to see such detail. There are consumer publications that will show what they think is a very educated picture of what a car dealer makes in the sale of a particular vehicle or an appliance store may make on the sale of a dishwasher, etc. but what some seem to be suggesting should exist from these small merchants is absurd. Tell you what – those who are demanding this transparency among these merchants should walk around at work with a sign pasted to their front and back disclosing what they get paid so as to let those with whom they interact determine if they’re worth it or not. Why don’t the lawyers disclose to their clients the portion of their billable time that goes directly in their own pockets and how many of these lawyers never stop the clock unless they really, really have no choice, or how over-billing is encouraged in many law firms? That’s gouging by reasonable definition, but no one is going to be in a position to put these pettifoggers under a microscope, so the consumers get hosed by those who can hose. The list is in no way limited to lawyers; there is a vast list of players by occupation, but expecting utopian scenarios where anyone you do business with discloses every area in which they gain some gross or net profit is foolhardy and delusional.
There is no hard evidence of “gouging,” yet that word is freely employed here. As has been said many times by cool heads here, it’s far easier and less injurious to all if you voice your displeasure by not purchasing from these merchants.
Now I finished where I left off on this thread before vacation and you guys can continue the blood letting without me ...
Saunders
SuinBruin
Well-Known Member
Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales
Holy thread necromancy, ELC-Man! :lol:
Every time I think I'm out, they keep pulling me back in. My last foray into this dead-horse-puree topic.
1. Everyone now knows more than they did before this thread began. They can draw their own conclusions as they see fit. Eastman's response to Jeff stands on its own (ahem) merits -- they're big boys who can speak for themselves. You don't need to pick up after them.
2. You cobbled together a bunch of numbers that had nothing to do with Good Wear and extrapolated them into a guesstimate (to be charitable) of John's costs. You were wrong. Plus, the whole issue is irrelevant. The question isn't what is a fair retail price -- the question is it fair to charge different retail (pretax) prices based on the buyer's location without disclosing it by using VAT as the cover for an additional 20% markup.
3. This:
4. OK Van, lemme have it.... Brother Bruin has strayed from the faith and sinned again by posting in this thread.
Holy thread necromancy, ELC-Man! :lol:
Every time I think I'm out, they keep pulling me back in. My last foray into this dead-horse-puree topic.
1. Everyone now knows more than they did before this thread began. They can draw their own conclusions as they see fit. Eastman's response to Jeff stands on its own (ahem) merits -- they're big boys who can speak for themselves. You don't need to pick up after them.
2. You cobbled together a bunch of numbers that had nothing to do with Good Wear and extrapolated them into a guesstimate (to be charitable) of John's costs. You were wrong. Plus, the whole issue is irrelevant. The question isn't what is a fair retail price -- the question is it fair to charge different retail (pretax) prices based on the buyer's location without disclosing it by using VAT as the cover for an additional 20% markup.
3. This:
does not compute.saunders said:
4. OK Van, lemme have it.... Brother Bruin has strayed from the faith and sinned again by posting in this thread.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi,
I haven't read the entire thread, pardon me, but
in defense of Eastman, I just returned from Heathrow airport
and got all the docs from VAT returns office.
It seems this operates with certain shops only who co-operate under the VAT returns scheme and must advertise "Tax Free Shopping"
The scheme does not apply for mail order or internet sales, unless the shop wants, in which case there has to be also be a brick shop (i.e. not only online shop).
So I guess Mr Eastman and Aero do not have any legal obligation to return, or not charge the VAT.
I haven't read the entire thread, pardon me, but
in defense of Eastman, I just returned from Heathrow airport
and got all the docs from VAT returns office.
It seems this operates with certain shops only who co-operate under the VAT returns scheme and must advertise "Tax Free Shopping"
The scheme does not apply for mail order or internet sales, unless the shop wants, in which case there has to be also be a brick shop (i.e. not only online shop).
So I guess Mr Eastman and Aero do not have any legal obligation to return, or not charge the VAT.
