Zemke's Wolfpack!

[Anonymous]

28 kills and 193 missions- how does that compare to a German who flew 1,000 missions and shot down 200+ planes? G

That's a comparable kill ratio.

And quite favourable for the USAAF considering the cream of the Luftwaffe was mostly on the Western front and the Soviet Air Force was a basket case for much of the war. Look at the Finnish record versus the Soviets. It speaks volumes.

Your own opinions are based on numbers and nothing else. German pilots were not in a 'league of their own'.

Yes- a comparable kill ratio but for one thing- OUR GUY GOT SHOT DOWN!! You are being quite obtuse aren't you? The Red Air Force was no "basket case" and as usual (ironically taking your cue from the Germans) you're claiming the Red Air Force of 1940 (vs. Finns) and 1941 (during Barbarossa) is representative of the whole war. Fact is the air war on the Eastern Front was also larger than that in the West- just much lesser known. Solipsistic and obtuse... :lol: I'm not saying our guys weren't really good (just like those amateur olympic basketball players) but the top Germans who survived 1,000 missions and shot down 2 or 3 hundred planes were simply in a league all their own! "Potential" and "possible" don't count- I'm talking about reality...

 

[Anonymous]

Obtuse? Solipsistic? Amusing and telling that you even consider the latter plausible. Surely you mean a scoofer! Or maybe you mean abstruse, yes, that's more like it. It's a fact Luftwaffe flyers flew more Missions and achieved more kills. If that's the sole criteria by which you claim they're in their own league then so be it. That I suppose is fair and I can accept it on those terms only because they're forgettable and predictably meaningless. No depth in your argument, just bias.

 

[Anonymous]

Obtuse? Solipsistic? Amusing and telling that you even consider the latter plausible. Surely you mean a scoofer! Or maybe you mean abstruse, yes, that's more like it. It's a fact Luftwaffe flyers flew more Missions and achieved more kills. If that's the sole criteria by which you claim they're in their own league then so be it. That I suppose is fair and I can accept it on those terms only because they're forgettable and predictably meaningless. No depth in your argument, just bias.

I agree with both of you 100%

 

[Anonymous]

Obtuse? Solipsistic? Amusing and telling that you even consider the latter plausible. Surely you mean a scoofer! Or maybe you mean abstruse, yes, that's more like it. It's a fact Luftwaffe flyers flew more Missions and achieved more kills. If that's the sole criteria by which you claim they're in their own league then so be it. That I suppose is fair and I can accept it on those terms only because they're forgettable and predictably meaningless. No depth in your argument, just bias.

No- I mean obtuse as in "dense". You're right- my argument is that they "they flew more missions and achieved more kills"- I guess I'm abstruse because I don't understand how those criteria- experience and record- can be sluffed off by you as "forgettable and meaningless". I guess the best people in other fields- say sports or medicine or science or whatever should be judged on what they WOULD have done, COULD have done or SHOULD have done! Not what they actually DID! That sure would make for a grey subtle little world as you seem to like! The fact is that the German experten were simply and unambiguously the best pilots of WW2. Our guys were great and obviously MAY have been in that same league if things worked out that way but it wasn't to be! Yeah- you're not biased...

 

[hacker]

No- I mean obtuse as in "dense".....

You're right- my argument is that they "they flew more missions and achieved more kills"- .....

The fact is that the German experten were simply and unambiguously the best pilots of WW2. ..

"dense"..........like in fixation?.........

Many German pilot racked up the highest scores in WW2....dah...because they flew the most missions!.......so therefore that makes them the best?.....OR the most experienced?......The best pilot of the war might have only flown one mission, how the HELL would you know!!!!.......The lucky ones made it thru the war, and those not so lucky didn't....and just maybe the best one was in that latter group....I don't know, and you sure as hell don't know either!!!!!!

Hacker

 

[Anonymous]

The fact is that the German experten were simply and unambiguously the best pilots of WW2.

Once again, your bias and the juvenille revisonist amateur historian talking. Prove it!

 

[Anonymous]

No- I mean obtuse as in "dense".....

You're right- my argument is that they "they flew more missions and achieved more kills"- .....

The fact is that the German experten were simply and unambiguously the best pilots of WW2. ..

"dense"..........like in fixation?.........

Many German pilot racked up the highest scores in WW2....dah...because they flew the most missions!.......so therefore that makes them the best?.....OR the most experienced?......The best pilot of the war might have only flown one mission, how the HELL would you know!!!!.......The lucky ones made it thru the war, and those not so lucky didn't....and just maybe the best one was in that latter group....I don't know, and you sure as hell don't know either!!!!!!

Hacker

The best AND most experienced! So to you "the best" is some amorphous quality when it comes to fighter piloting? I see! The guy with most stick finesse (you know- guys like you :lol: ) or the most sincere determination? "The Best" in fighter piloting can't be quantified? I see- so it's unlike say sniping (some Finn) or hitting home runs (Bonds) or sumpin' like that? Unlike other activities in fighter piloting how many shoot-downs you have is just part of some larger vague spiritual "bestness" that can't be quantified. I see! Wow- you're deep!

 

[Anonymous]

The fact is that the German experten were simply and unambiguously the best pilots of WW2.

Once again, your bias and the juvenille revisonist amateur historian talking. Prove it!

Yeah- sorry I'm not some know-it-all British twit! As far as proving it- well- not to beat a dead horse but don't the facts and figures speak for themselves? My God Man! These guys flew THOUSANDS of missions and survived! They shot down 4 ,8 almost 12 times as many planes as their closest ETO competitors. They knew how to shoot down planes BETTER than anyone else- what's the argument? As far as revisionism- I PROUDLY deviate from the official Keegan, Ambrose and Beevor crap you obviously suck up!

 

[bfrench]

The fact is that the German experten were simply and unambiguously the best pilots of WW2.

Once again, your bias and the juvenille revisonist amateur historian talking. Prove it!

Yeah- sorry I'm not some know-it-all British twit! As far as proving it- well- not to beat a dead horse but don't the facts and figures speak for themselves? My God Man! These guys flew THOUSANDS of missions and survived! They shot down 4 ,8 almost 12 times as many planes as their closest ETO competitors. They knew how to shoot down planes BETTER than anyone else- what's the argument? As far as revisionism- I PROUDLY deviate from the official Keegan, Ambrose and Beevor crap you obviously suck up!

This one has no winner - it's all timeline - the Allies copied the Axis methods and turned it against them and won.

The high number of kills we all due to targets of opportunity - the Allies had thousands of planes above theGerman homeland - enough so that even the new kids straight into combat rang up scores of 10 to 20 kills - far superior in numbers to the Allies but when it came to one on one the new kids lost just about every time.

The absolute best pilots on both sides were those who did a tour of combat, went to the schools and taught tactics and then returned to combat again.

What was happening that by teaching they were also learning to become more proficient at their skills and deadlier to the enemy.

Again, timeline and available targets.

Unfortunately, a lot of the best died - the lucky lived.

As for the experten - Erich Hartmann - 352 kills - went to the tactics and gunnery schools in the US after returning from his 10 year imprisonment in Russia - was amazed at how many fighter pilots the Yanks had who could take him in a one on one in jets - maybe he just got old.

Bill French

 

[Anonymous]

Bill:

This one has no winner - it's all timeline - the Allies copied the Axis methods and turned it against them and won.

Agree- except the "no winner" part. The Allies used Axis methods to win- especially those Russkis who by 1944 outblitzkrieged those Heinies a hundred times over. Still- how can you say a really goood US pilot who racked up say 20 kills on his alloted tour or tours can even be compared to a German who shot down 200! planes and flew for say 6 years in combat?- it's like saying a junior high-schooler is as good as a PhD because he writes nice term papers! The junior high-schooler may be getting better training than the PhD did at this point- he may be in a better school and potentially he may show alot more promise- but a PhD's still a PhD! Experience counts...

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah- sorry I'm not some know-it-all British twit! As far as proving it- well- not to beat a dead horse but don't the facts and figures speak for themselves? My God Man! These guys flew THOUSANDS of missions and survived! They shot down 4 ,8 almost 12 times as many planes as their closest ETO competitors. They knew how to shoot down planes BETTER than anyone else- what's the argument? As far as revisionism- I PROUDLY deviate from the official Keegan, Ambrose and Beevor crap you obviously suck up!

I think you just deviate. Period. In the context of your 'German pilots were the best' statement then no, the facts and figures do not speak for themselves. Talking of obtuse, your approach is flawed. If you were to have said 'Germans flew the most Missions and shot down the most aircraft' then that would be fine but you persist in linking these facts with something you would just like to believe in - that german pilots were better than any other - because it just makes you feel good. Why, I have no idea? I have no horse in the race, couldn't care less who was the finest and I'd be happy as larry to hear a coherent argument.

 

[Anonymous]

Tranquility:

If you were to have said 'Germans flew the most Missions and shot down the most aircraft'

I've only said it fifty times! I have not "deviated" from this position- it is my argument! You obviously have a nag somewhere "in this race" because you seem to say obliquely that some other factor-what? "the look of eagles"? Alliedness? Britishness?- is a factor in determining who was The Best Fighter Pilot. Tell us coherently o Larry why the Germans, having shot down more aircraft and flown the most missions weren't the best fighter pilots of the war...

PS- Thanks for the free psychoanalysis- I wished I'd known making myself "feel good " was so easy...and I thought I felt good annoying you! :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Funny, when I want to know about WW2 fighter pilots the first person I would consult would not be some storm troop loving nut job. Oh, unless you are a WW2 pilot, PHd WW2 "experten" or EVEN A PILOT! NO, no and hell no.

 

[Anonymous]

I've only said it fifty times! I have not "deviated" from this position- it is my argument!

Not quite fifty but it does seem that way. You make the assumption that quantity of missions and kills is the only criteria by which 'the best' (vague term - define it) can be determined. If strict interpretation of numbers is all that matters to you then you're saying German pilots with 200/300+ kills were ten or more times 'better' than their allied counterparts with 20+ kills? Clearly that's nonsense and there ends your argument. My thinking is that it takes a little more than simply rolling out figures to ascertain who was 'the best', though I agree the figures mean something. You'll remember from my earlier post that I didn't claim any particular nation had a spectacular edge in terms of individual human ability.

Tell us coherently o Larry why the Germans, having shot down more aircraft and flown the most missions weren't the best fighter pilots of the war...

See the link you provided in your first post to this thread. It provides some basic arguments. Take them and run with them. But in brief, combat conditions (many of them) are the variable.

PS- Thanks for the free psychoanalysis

You're welcome. I hope it helped. However, I will be charging for your next post.

 

[Anonymous]

Tranquility ;

you're saying German pilots with 200/300+ kills were ten or more times 'better' than their allied counterparts with 20+ kills?

NO- that's not what I'm saying! I'm saying that with 200/300 kills and hundreds more missions flown a German experten pilot had the edge over any other pilot in terms of skill and knowledge- in the right plane- say a FW 190- he'd be -pretty much BETTER than anyone else! Maybe only .33485 % better- maybe 48% better- who knows? he'd have the edge- he'd be the BETTER fighter pilot in an otherwise equal contest.

 

[Anonymous]

Funny, when I want to know about WW2 fighter pilots the first person I would consult would not be some storm troop loving nut job. Oh, unless you are a WW2 pilot, PHd WW2 "experten" or EVEN A PILOT! NO, no and hell no.

I guess you're not much one for "book learnin'" are you- learned everything you know from "actual participants" often with an axe to grind- eh? Maybe that's why you're such a maroon!

 

[Anonymous]

Tranquility:

'the best' (vague term - define it)

Yeah- it's real vague alright! Vague to someone as subtle and slippery and ambiguous as you! Best fighter pilots probably were the best at SHOOTING DOWN PLANES-neh? What are we talking about- for once YOU define it!

 

[hacker]

....... Best fighter pilots probably were the best at SHOOTING DOWN PLANES-neh? What are we talking about- for once YOU define it!

Gerhard Barkhorn
Gerhard Barkhorn scored 301 victories, achieved in 1,104 missions; all his victories were won on the Russian Front.

He was born on 20 May 1919 at Königsberg in East Prussia. In 1937, he joined the Luftwaffe, and began flight training in March 1938. After initial posting to 3./JG 2, Leutnant Barkhorn was transferred to 6./JG 52 on 1 August 1940. He flew his first missions during the Battle of Britain but did not shoot down any aircraft at this time. He was shot down over the Channel, but was rescued. Barkhorn achieved his first victory during his 120th mission on 2 July 1941 over the Eastern Front. Thereafter he was to score steadily, if relatively unspectacularly, in comparison to other Eastern Front Luftwaffe aces. On his best single mission he scored four victories, on his best day seven.


According to Jeff's logic, one of the top scoring Nazi's was not as superior as ANY British pilot as he was not able to get a single score against the Brits....and to make matters worse was actually shot down by one meaning that pilot must have been better, simply based on that dogfight....which....according to Jeff is the determining factor in determining pilot skills! :roll:


Hacker

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.2worldwar2.com/marseille.htm

!7 planes in a day...


BTW-Hacker:

that dogfight....which....according to Jeff is the determining factor in determining pilot skills!

Did I say "dogfight" or Dogfighting anywhere? I said "shooting down planes"...

 

[hacker]

BTW-Hacker:

that dogfight....which....according to Jeff is the determining factor in determining pilot skills!

Did I say "dogfight" or Dogfighting anywhere? I said "shooting down planes"...

In the case of pilot skills, I would think even you would realize that "dogfighting" would be a top skill for fighter pilots...not how many planes you destroyed. I guess using your logic one could simply hang out over a commercial airport and simply shoot down as many civilian airliners as you could to "inflate" your score!.......or maybe the gunner in the back of a dive bomber would make a better pilot then the guy up front as he most likely has a better record of "shooting down planes" :roll:

......give it up!....your argument went down in flames a long while back!!!!


Hacker