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Zemke's Wolfpack!
- Thread starter T-Bolt
- Start date
hacker
Active Member
rotenhahn said:
You being a history buff.....get a copy of "Air Power" by S. Budiansky. Should be able to get it cheap online. It's right up your alley. Great stuff on both the Allies, and of course your pals the Nazi's
and their methodology of air warfare. Two thumbs up! .....Great book, you'll thank me Hacker
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Anonymous
Guest
Will do- I read the Jablonski Air Power books in the late Seventies- got the jist of the "using bombers and escorts to destroy the Luftwaffe" theory but to be honest (here you go) I haven't read much since. I have the Jane's Battles With the Luftwaffe but haven't read it. Thanks for the tip-
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Anonymous
Guest
I suggest "Airwar" by Jablonski. That and stop going to hitler Youth Rallys.
bfrench
Administrator
Hi, Guys,
It's ironic following this thread about who had the best pilots, etc - it's a lot like who had the best plane.
What has to be taken into consideration is the timeline.
At the end of the 1930s, undoubtedly the superior trained combat pilots were the Germans and Japanese mainly because the Allies didn't believe the Axis were as good or as powerful as they were and consequently didn't spend the money or resources to train their pilots.
But by 1943 at the latest, the US had set up training bases all over the States and the the British had established the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan with bases spread all over the Commonwealth with the majority being in Canada.
This changed the balance of training in favor of the Allies - a newbie arriving at the squadron had 250 hours and the equivalent of air combat training which the Axis pilots we no longer getting.
As for the high counts on the Axis side - these guys had thousands of planes to shoot at while the Allied pilots had a protection job to keep the bomber stream flowing.
Axis pilots flew until exhausted physically or mentally - Allied pilots put in 50 missions - returned home and passed along the experience by teaching the new guys - the absolute correct way to maintain an active air force.
If the roles were reversed - the experienced Allied pilots would have racked up the same numbers as did the Germans - a good comparison of that was the Battle of Britain where the fighter pilots job was to kill enemy bombers - and oddly enough a time when some of the highest scores by the RAF were attained - a time when they had targets to kill.
So at that time the Brits were the elite plane killers - they had just defeated the German plans to bombard England into submission.
Who had the best pilots? Depends on when, where and who was attacking or defending.
If the Germans had the best - must have been because they didn't have the means to establish an offensive which means they were outgunned from the East and West.
The really surprising thing to come out of the whole war was that the lessons both sides learned then are still being taught today.
The old lesson still applies - first you learn to fly well enough to do it without thinking, then you learn to kill without thinking of how it needs to be done.
At the end of WWII both sides were doing just that - nothing glorious just practical reality.
Bill French
It's ironic following this thread about who had the best pilots, etc - it's a lot like who had the best plane.
What has to be taken into consideration is the timeline.
At the end of the 1930s, undoubtedly the superior trained combat pilots were the Germans and Japanese mainly because the Allies didn't believe the Axis were as good or as powerful as they were and consequently didn't spend the money or resources to train their pilots.
But by 1943 at the latest, the US had set up training bases all over the States and the the British had established the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan with bases spread all over the Commonwealth with the majority being in Canada.
This changed the balance of training in favor of the Allies - a newbie arriving at the squadron had 250 hours and the equivalent of air combat training which the Axis pilots we no longer getting.
As for the high counts on the Axis side - these guys had thousands of planes to shoot at while the Allied pilots had a protection job to keep the bomber stream flowing.
Axis pilots flew until exhausted physically or mentally - Allied pilots put in 50 missions - returned home and passed along the experience by teaching the new guys - the absolute correct way to maintain an active air force.
If the roles were reversed - the experienced Allied pilots would have racked up the same numbers as did the Germans - a good comparison of that was the Battle of Britain where the fighter pilots job was to kill enemy bombers - and oddly enough a time when some of the highest scores by the RAF were attained - a time when they had targets to kill.
So at that time the Brits were the elite plane killers - they had just defeated the German plans to bombard England into submission.
Who had the best pilots? Depends on when, where and who was attacking or defending.
If the Germans had the best - must have been because they didn't have the means to establish an offensive which means they were outgunned from the East and West.
The really surprising thing to come out of the whole war was that the lessons both sides learned then are still being taught today.
The old lesson still applies - first you learn to fly well enough to do it without thinking, then you learn to kill without thinking of how it needs to be done.
At the end of WWII both sides were doing just that - nothing glorious just practical reality.
Bill French
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Anonymous
Guest
Well said, I agree. The Germans did have superb pilots. In both wars.
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Anonymous
Guest
I agree with everyone 100%.
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Anonymous
Guest
I retract all all my agreements.
A
Anonymous
Guest
WingNut:rotenhahn said:
???? :?: :?: If I were a Nazi I'd be a 54 year-old Volkssturm conscript waiting to get my dick shot off by some "slant-eyed Mongol" somewhere...
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Anonymous
Guest
bfrench said:
I agree with most of your post Bill but I would still say that in terms of absolute skill the top German pilots were far ahead of anyone. By score alone they were miles ahead- and although we tend to poo-poo the Eastern front air war remember the Soviets had good pilots too later in the war. I'm not sure German pilots flew "until exhausted mentally and physically"- the German military was very good at rotating men out to avoid "combat fatigue"- in fact even their ground troops rotated out of desperate battles if it was their turn except for the last few months of the war. The German pilots did have to go back to the front always but I don't think they were in as desperate shape as you imply. Obviously by going back eventually many didn't beat the odds. Recently I watched the History Channel show on Operation Bodenplatte and there was a story of two Thunderbolt pilots fighting a German in a BF109- they described his acrobatic moves as "incredible"- he literally skidded the plane around horizontally and very aggressively fought back (and eventually got shot down) but the US pilots were astounded. I think that experience alone puts them miles ahead- as you say however institutionally the Germans eventually couldn't beat the odds and were sending up 18 year-olds with 10 hours training to die amongst the bomber streams. We obviously won the war but my argument is that in terms of skill and tactics and training the Germans were better- in fact after the war many countries including the US immediately started using their ideas!
bfrench
Administrator
rotenhahn said:
The Allies were using the tactics developed by the Germans as early as 1942 when they adopted the finger four loose formation - the tight three vic used by the RAF and USAAF soon proved to be inferior.
Pilots who operate the same piece of machinery for lengthy periods tend to become very adept in that particular aircraft - that's basically what happened to the Luftwaffe - the only real fighters they had in numbers were the Me-109 and the FW-190 - and they flew them daily in combat sometimes moments after takeoff they were in combat.
The Allies - in a lot of cases, escorted bombers for hours then went after the fighters and still defeated them. That speaks volumes - a long boring cross-countrty flight dulling your mind - then being involved in a fight for supremacy - and then another long boring flight back home.
In a lot of cases the Germans were fighting over their home airfields - a big advantage in any fracas.
Like I said before - the timeline has to be considered and then the location of the fight.
One big thing you're overlooking - it wasn't a fight - dogfights were the results of mistakes - the actual mission was to come up behind the enemy - kill him and then go home unscathed.
Not very chivalrous but it's how you win - just look at the air world today - maximum stealth - maximum chance of winning.
The example you gave of the US pilots being surprised by the Me-109's pilot's skill - the Thunderbolt pilots talked about it after shooting him down in an inferior dogfighting plane - were they lucky or just as skillful?
Bill French
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Anonymous
Guest
bfrench said:
No- I think it took 2 or 3 of them- lucky shot... anyway- when I spoke of German tactics and training I meant in all things military- not just in the air. My main point is on the top German pilots- they were in a league all of their own for sure- you can't take it away from them- we're talking orders of magnitude. Simply the best ever...
John Lever
Moderator
Just an observation here, I don't want to enter into the very heated argument about who was ' best' but remember the Germans did have early experience of combat in the Spanish Civil War from 1936 to 1939, several years before the US entered WW2. They also had superb engineers and aircraft including rocket powered planes. Britain was bombarded by V1 flying bombs the precursor to the cruise missile and by V2 missiles, the precursor to the ballistic missile.
60 years later rocket power is again being considered as propulsion for high speed high altitude flight.
The pilots on both sides were only human.
60 years later rocket power is again being considered as propulsion for high speed high altitude flight.
The pilots on both sides were only human.
hacker
Active Member
rotenhahn said:
On Aug. 6, 1944 Maj. George Preddy of the 352nd FG shot down six ME-109 in his P-51, in ONE day!........lucky shot?.......probably not!.......and no he wasn't shooting down Russian biplanes with his cannon equipped top of line fighter like many of your hero's, but destroying one of the best pure interceptors of the war (at least once it got off the ground!).....I suspect if he and other allied pilots like him had the whole war to practice their craft you'd be singing (well....maybe not you!) their praises as well!......."simply the best ever".......they came from all sides!!!!
Hacker
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Anonymous
Guest
He is singing now Hacker...Horst W.
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Anonymous
Guest
This debate has been going on for about 60 years... what's the best aircraft of WW2? Who's the best pilot? Who's got the bigger dad? My dad can beat your dad up. Yeah, probably. etc. etc. But it's very difficult to undertake a proper comparative analysis of various combatants worth since there are so many variables ... stage of war and state of tactics, target abundance, target type, escort or intercept sortie, career/tour of duty, offensive op, defensive op, western front, eastern front, quality of opponent and on and on. The best analysis I've seen suggested that there was very little between the Luftwaffe, USAAF and RAF and their aircraft and pilots. If you apply formula and come up with projections based upon USAAF and RAF flyers careers being similar to those of the Luftwaffe i.e. 'fly til you die', you'll also find allied flyers notching up numbers of kills comparable to the major Luft aces.
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Anonymous
Guest
hacker said:
Woulda been, coulda been, shoulda been...Hacker- look up SOLIPSISM in the dictionary- you and most Americans suffer from it! I'm saying that from pure experience- hours in combat- whatever- the top German pilots were above all. It's like comparing American basketball pros with the sincere amateurs from other countries who went to the Olympics. And as usual you snigger about the Russians when in fact their top ace also OUTSCORED us! At the beginning of the war they flew biplanes but they had modern fighters by the middle (except for the biplanes flown at night by those crazy women) Do you think the Navy guys who flew against the Japanese should take back their "Marianas Turkey Shoot" scores because the Japs were so inexperienced by that time? I think the record speaks for itself despite the lawyeristc babblings of Tranquility Base whose "best analysis" proves of course that WE were as good or better considering...The top ETO American ace was Gabrseki with 28 kills and 193 missions- how does that compare to a German who flew 1,000 missions and shot down 200+ planes? Gabrseski got shot down so we'll never know- which is my point- we don't know- only the Germans managed to do it! Give credit where it's due!
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Anonymous
Guest
rotenhahn said:
That's a comparable kill ratio.
And quite favourable for the USAAF considering the cream of the Luftwaffe was mostly on the Western front and the Soviet Air Force was a basket case for much of the war. Look at the Finnish record versus the Soviets. It speaks volumes.
Your own opinions are based on numbers and nothing else. German pilots were not in a 'league of their own'.
hacker
Active Member
rotenhahn said:
Using your "logic".........and giving credit where it's due.....
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Israel-- ... id=1323816
Kill ratios par excellence!!!!
Hacker
