Willis and Geigher M-445

[Schoonerman]

Hi everyone,

Does anyone have any solid (i.e., not speculative) insight on M-445 jackets Willis and Geiger seems to have made some time between the early 60s - early 70s, please? I remember seeing a couple of these jackets in surplus stores in the day, and I've come across them/reference to them several times since, including here on VLJ. I'm wondering if they were made for the USN or the civilian market? I have one of these jackets (pictures) and its various details argue, conflictingly, for both possibilities. Anyone know the real answer?

Many thanks and stay cool out there,

Mike

Mike

 

[B-Man2]

The W&G M-455 jackets from WWII were reproduced by W&G around the 1980’s for commercial sales using similar patterns as the WWII jackets . They were good quality jackets and can still be found for sale today on EBay and other websites

 

[Schoonerman]

Many thanks, B-Man2.

 

[John Lever]

The modern repro jackets have a paperclip zip and are generally medium quality at best.

 

[Schoonerman]

Hi Everyone. Nice Irvin there, John.

First, I realize now I didn't really pic the right forum for this post - I’ll get it right next time and glad you all found this. And my turn to get dinged by spell-check!

The quality of my jacket is really excellent. Aside from a few details, it’s comparable to the original W&G 445s I’ve seen with the advantage of being at least 30 years newer (mine is virtually NOS - aside from being a little dried out, which was easily taken care of, it shows no wear at all). That and the very sturdy Talon zip make it ideal for my purpose, i.e., wearing with little worry (I use it exclusively for winter star gazing and celestial nav practice). In fact, I’d recommend one of these later W&G 445s to anyone wanting a wearable vintage shearling jacket. As with the originals, however, don’t trust sizes.

Thanks again, Gents - nice to be in conversation.

Fly Navy,

Mike

 

[B-Man2]

Hi Everyone. Nice Irvin there, John.

First, I realize now I didn't really pic the right forum for this post - I’ll get it right next time and glad you all found this. And my turn to get dinged by spell-check!

The quality of my jacket is really excellent. Aside from a few details, it’s comparable to the original W&G 445s I’ve seen with the advantage of being at least 30 years newer (mine is virtually NOS - aside from being a little dried out, which was easily taken care of, it shows no wear at all). That and the very sturdy Talon zip make it ideal for my purpose, i.e., wearing with little worry (I use it exclusively for winter star gazing and celestial nav practice). In fact, I’d recommend one of these later W&G 445s to anyone wanting a wearable vintage shearling jacket. As with the originals, however, don’t trust sizes.

Thanks again, Gents - nice to be in conversation.

Fly Navy,

Mike

I owned one for a few years . I found it to be a great jacket and never would have sold it but it was a size 44 and tight on me .

 

[Schoonerman]

I understand 44 was the largest they made these in.

 

[B-Man2]

I understand 44 was the largest they made these in.

I thought I had seen a 46 on eBay at some point but maybe I’m wrong on that

 

[Erwin]

I thought I had seen a 46 on eBay at some point but maybe I’m wrong on that

Yep You are right, I've seen auctions with these in 46 size as well

 

[jack31916]

I have a size 46.

It's a fine jacket (and not medium quality) but allas not an accurate repro of the WW2 M-445-B jackets.

The short zip and buttons are handy when driving a car. If unbuttoned it prevents the jacket from riding up and thus providing more free movement.

 

[Schoonerman]

Let me propose a perhaps long-shot theory re: these ‘later’ W&G M-445s. It may not pass Occam’s Razor as well as the likely explanation these were simply commercial products, but I think there’s enough evidence to at least consider the theory.

Jack’s pointing out that these jackets are not faithful reproductions is what had made me wonder in the first place whether these jackets were ever meant to be reproductions at all, but, rather, the next iteration of the M-445 family (M-445C, if you will) for the USN. Before anyone scoffs, a few bits of evidence perhaps support this theory.

First, I remember seeing a picture of a USN A-4 pilot in the late ‘60s or ‘70s wearing an M-445. Odd it’s Skyhawk pilot, as I know, from personal experience, there’s barely room for a normal-size human in a Scooter and, if these jackets were still in service then, they would have been for use in the VP, VQ, etc., communities. But still, if this photo’s evidence, it seems these jackets were still around corners of naval aviation at that time (though I admit I have no other photographic evidence and I’ve never met anyone who could confirm it).

Second, there was clearly no attempt on the part of W&G to make M-445 reproductions with these later jackets: there are simply too many details ‘wrong.’ But there are, thirdly, a number of details in common with G-1s of the era I think these later 445s came from, i.e., the mid- to late 60s. The goatskin on my W&G M-445 is so close to that of a ‘65ish Star G-1 (WEP-C) I have that they could have come from the same goat. This suggests to me the hides of my later 445 were sourced by the Navy. Many of the construction details between the jackets are strikingly similar, too, just as the details my 445 has in common with its predecessors are with them. I think the details in which my 445 differs from the WWII-era 445s all represent both improvements in design (short, heavy zip, smaller collar, shorter pile, etc.) and use of USN-provided materials from the mid-late ‘60s. Perhaps the Navy had ordered more of these jackets only to realize the airplanes they were intended to be used in were all going away (the Marlin, e.g., last flew in 1967) and their replacements were all plenty comfy. So maybe W&G slapped some ‘Made in USA’ tags behind the sizes and sold them on the civilian market (and getting paid twice, effectively).

That there was really no civilian market for new sheepskin flying jackets in the ‘60s - ‘80s adds, I think, to the plausibility of the theory I offer.

So while you’re likely right, B-Man2, in the absence of documentary evidence to the contrary, everything I’ve laid out here suggests at least a possible alternate explanation. It’s not a theory I’m necessarily defending, I’m just sayin’…

 

[B-Man2]

Let me propose a perhaps long-shot theory re: these ‘later’ W&G M-445s. It may not pass Occam’s Razor as well as the likely explanation these were simply commercial products, but I think there’s enough evidence to at least consider the theory.

Jack’s pointing out that these jackets are not faithful reproductions is what had made me wonder in the first place whether these jackets were ever meant to be reproductions at all, but, rather, the next iteration of the M-445 family (M-445C, if you will) for the USN. Before anyone scoffs, a few bits of evidence perhaps support this theory.

First, I remember seeing a picture of a USN A-4 pilot in the late ‘60s or ‘70s wearing an M-445. Odd it’s Skyhawk pilot, as I know, from personal experience, there’s barely room for a normal-size human in a Scooter and, if these jackets were still in service then, they would have been for use in the VP, VQ, etc., communities. But still, if this photo’s evidence, it seems these jackets were still around corners of naval aviation at that time (though I admit I have no other photographic evidence and I’ve never met anyone who could confirm it).

Second, there was clearly no attempt on the part of W&G to make M-445 reproductions with these later jackets: there are simply too many details ‘wrong.’ But there are, thirdly, a number of details in common with G-1s of the era I think these later 445s came from, i.e., the mid- to late 60s. The goatskin on my W&G M-445 is so close to that of a ‘65ish Star G-1 (WEP-C) I have that they could have come from the same goat. This suggests to me the hides of my later 445 were sourced by the Navy. Many of the construction details between the jackets are strikingly similar, too, just as the details my 445 has in common with its predecessors are with them. I think the details in which my 445 differs from the WWII-era 445s all represent both improvements in design (short, heavy zip, smaller collar, shorter pile, etc.) and use of USN-provided materials from the mid-late ‘60s. Perhaps the Navy had ordered more of these jackets only to realize the airplanes they were intended to be used in were all going away (the Marlin, e.g., last flew in 1967) and their replacements were all plenty comfy. So maybe W&G slapped some ‘Made in USA’ tags behind the sizes and sold them on the civilian market (and getting paid twice, effectively).

That there was really no civilian market for new sheepskin flying jackets in the ‘60s - ‘80s adds, I think, to the plausibility of the theory I offer.

So while you’re likely right, B-Man2, in the absence of documentary evidence to the contrary, everything I’ve laid out here suggests at least a possible alternate explanation. It’s not a theory I’m necessarily defending, I’m just sayin’…

Theories and opinions are what gives this forum life and makes it fun to read and be part of. Is your theory possible ?
Sure it’s possible ….but ….( that’s always the show stopper word isn’t it ?)
Every jacket that the military designed , approved, put out Requests For Proposal, Awarded Contracts to Manufacturers to procure … and accepted delivery of … was documented and for the most part ( with the exception of the earlier years 1915 - 1930s those purchasing orders etc are still with us today in the National Archives and in various museums. So even if a jacket was designed, approved , contracts awarded and then it all turned to shit and the Dept of Navy never accepted the jackets and W&G changed the labels and put them into the civilian market…
It would have happened in the 1960s or there bouts and there would definitely be a record and documents, purchasing agreements , contracts etc from that period .
Your thoughts ?

 

[B-Man2]

To add to my last post I think that W&G saw an opportunity to capitalize on there previous wartime design and produced those jackets for commercial sales. It was about the same time that military surplus was the fashion statement of the period and W&G wasn’t doing great in the sales arena and was looking for different ideas to boost sales.Let me add that I don’t think that this jacket was made in the 1960s but rather in the 1980s. One last point .. you mentioned seeing a photo of a skyhawk pilot wearing an M-455 in the 1960s . Thats entirely possible . We know for sure that guys wore A2’s during the Korean War even though they were taken out of service in 1943. Several pilots were called back for service during Korea and many stayed in the service and flew during Korea. They had A2’s and they liked them and used them during Korea . Surely the photo you saw of a Skyhawk pilot wearing a 455 can almost certainly be a similar example of a flyer holding onto his favorite jacket for the next war. Anyway that’s all have to share . You have an interesting theory, but there are some points we differ on .
Cheers

 

[Schoonerman]

Thanks for following along as I over-think this! Your logic is certainly solid and, as I said, I think it's far more likely your theory is the correct one than mine. If you're right about the dates, then the commercial explanation makes all the more sense. Before that, there was certainly no demand for new such jackets: I remember perfectly good B-3s still in surplus stores at near give-away prices in the mid-70s.

I'm sure a trip to the NA could settle it, but I won't be doing that. There seems to be no record online of the contract listed on the tag, which proves exactly nothing.

Whatever the actual explanation, this newer jacket serves my purposes ideally: it's wearable and wear-outable.

Thank you all for the very thoughtful and fun conversation! What will it be next?

 

[B-Man2]

Thanks for following along as I over-think this! Your logic is certainly solid and, as I said, I think it's far more likely your theory is the correct one than mine. If you're right about the dates, then the commercial explanation makes all the more sense. Before that, there was certainly no demand for new such jackets: I remember perfectly good B-3s still in surplus stores at near give-away prices in the mid-70s.

I'm sure a trip to the NA could settle it, but I won't be doing that. There seems to be no record online of the contract listed on the tag, which proves exactly nothing.

Whatever the actual explanation, this newer jacket serves my purposes ideally: it's wearable and wear-outable.

Thank you all for the very thoughtful and fun conversation! What will it be next?

Dave Sheely is our “go to” USN jacket guy.
He’s done a lot of research thru NA files and found some amazing documents on USN jackets going back years . Maybe he’ll weigh in on some of this …

 

[Schoonerman]

I'd be glad if he did!