Who has a new line Bill Kelso A2?

[ButteMT61]

It would be nice if we could get a summary on what exactly is happening here. I do not quite get the end result of what is being done. And if others are doing this, it should be spelled out as well. I've read this a few times and I'm still somewhat confused... :shock:

 

[Jeff M]

OK, on first reading Mr Eastman's statement about VAT makes no sense but actually it tells us what is going on.
When I sell something I issue a receipt showing the VAT content. I then hand this money over every quarter to the Vatman.
There is another option for small businesses. You estimate turnover and pay VAT on that. No need for two sets of books
accounting for VAT and non-VAT sales and it makes things easier for cash sales at shows . In short there is no reclaimable VAT content on non-EU sales.

Sorry...no go.
If that is the case, Eastman should just come out and say it on their web site or in the first email reply.
Also...go back and take a look at the links you provided me earlier;

http://www.youmustcreate.com/products/j ... er-jacket/

£495.00 for an Eastman A1 (what I had planned on purchasing). And that's INCLUDING VAT. Less 20% off that price when sold to the states...+ £20.00 shipping, comes to £416.00

Eastman charged me £624.99

I asked Gary about this...he replied;
"This is a different product, and YMC have their own way of setting their pricing system - it's nothing to do with us."

The YMC jacket is advertised as an Eastman USAAF A1, capeskin.
They use the exact same description as is used on the Eastman web site..down to the final;
"The Capeskin used has been sourced and selected from the highest grade available. It's finished in an aniline Seal Brown dye, matched exactly to the original. This combination of quality and dye method produces a leather that is just delicious to touch and eye."

So, how is this a "different product"?

Sorry. I know the difference between £624 and £416.
When somebody is so obviously trying to avoid a topic/explain away something with misleading replies, I loose all faith in them.

 

[m444uk]

Jeff, as I said there are two ways of accounting for VAT. Imagine you run a small grocery store. Some items like printed matter and food are zero rated for VAT. Some are chargeable , for example a lighter. Clearly you can't account for every item so your VAT return is an estimate based on turnover. You have not actually issued a proper VAT receipt for the lighter so the VAT content is not listed on the receipt so is not reclaimable.

In a shop selling expensive watches on Bond street things are different. It's in their interests to explain to customers that the VAT receipt includes itemized sales tax that can be reclaimed at Heathrow customs office on departure.

Eastman items are expensive enough that they should be using method two IMHO as YMC do. The YMC site explains things well probably due to the fact they are in a trendy part of London with many foreigners whilst Eastman are in deepest rural Devon and are country bumpkins !

 

[m444uk]

http://www.youmustcreate.com/products/j ... er-jacket/


I asked Gary about this...he replied;
"This is a different product, and YMC have their own way of setting their pricing system - it's nothing to do with us."

The YMC jacket is advertised as an Eastman USAAF A1, capeskin.
They use the exact same description as is used on the Eastman web site..down to the final;
"The Capeskin used has been sourced and selected from the highest grade available. It's finished in an aniline Seal Brown dye, matched exactly to the original. This combination of quality and dye method produces a leather that is just delicious to touch and eye."

So, how is this a "different product"?

Sorry. I know the difference between £624 and £416.
When somebody is so obviously trying to avoid a topic/explain away something with misleading replies, I loose all faith in them.

Your right the non-timeworn A1 is a standard ELC A1. I had a look at it when I bought my B-3. There are differences in the other jacket though.
My Perry type B-3 has a YMC label in it and the standard Crown zip. But essentially it's the same jacket.

I've given up reading Mr Eastman quotes. They are nonsensical grammatically.

 

[Jeff M]

Jeff, as I said there are two ways of accounting for VAT. Imagine you run a small grocery store. Some items like printed matter and food are zero rated for VAT. Some are chargeable , for example a lighter. Clearly you can't account for every item so your VAT return is an estimate based on turnover. You have not actually issued a proper VAT receipt for the lighter so the VAT content is not listed on the receipt so is not reclaimable.

In a shop selling expensive watches on Bond street things are different. It's in their interests to explain to customers that the VAT receipt includes itemized sales tax that can be reclaimed at Heathrow customs office on departure.

Eastman items are expensive enough that they should be using method two IMHO as YMC do. The YMC site explains things well probably due to the fact they are in a trendy part of London with many foreigners whilst Eastman are in deepest rural Devon and are country bumpkins !

And as I noted...when I see somebody/ a company twist and turn to avoid explaining what their policy is, I choose not to deal with them.
Just come out and say what you are doing rather than trying to obfuscate.

 

[FlyingYankee]

My BK was my first real Flight Jacket. arms a a little short but I still love the jacket. The horsehide seems Topnotch.

 

[Marv]

My BK was my first real Flight Jacket. arms a a little short but I still love the jacket. The horsehide seems Topnotch.

From the photo, the arm length looks fine and yes that's very nice horsehide

 

[Jeff M]

Yep. The arm length looks perfect.
You generally want to avoid the leather sleeve overriding the knits (known as "tunneling").
Your sleeves look spot on in those photos.

 

[Anonymous]

FY, if I can borrow your pic from the other thread, I think the sleeves look OK here too.
The jacket fits you fine.

 

[arclight]

Flying Yankee...............looks like a good fit on you. Congratulations!

 

[saunders]

OK, on first reading Mr Eastman's statement about VAT makes no sense but actually it tells us what is going on.
When I sell something I issue a receipt showing the VAT content. I then hand this money over every quarter to the Vatman.
There is another option for small businesses. You estimate turnover and pay VAT on that. No need for two sets of books
accounting for VAT and non-VAT sales and it makes things easier for cash sales at shows . In short there is no reclaimable VAT content on non-EU sales.

Sorry...no go.
If that is the case, Eastman should just come out and say it on their web site or in the first email reply.
Also...go back and take a look at the links you provided me earlier;

http://www.youmustcreate.com/products/j ... er-jacket/

£495.00 for an Eastman A1 (what I had planned on purchasing). And that's INCLUDING VAT. Less 20% off that price when sold to the states...+ £20.00 shipping, comes to £416.00

Is VAT really 20% of the total item price (495.00) or does the total item price contain 20% of VAT determined from a lower number (price of goods sold); in the case of 495.00, the VAT 20% could be 412.50. I think the total item price contains 20% VAT, so the VAT would actually be 82.50 (total item price @ 495.00 divided by 1.20 gives the price of goods sold @ 412.50, and the difference between 495.00 and 412.50 is the VAT @ 20% of 412.50).

 

[Jeff M]

...
Is VAT really 20% of the total item price (495.00) or does the total item price contain 20% of VAT determined from a lower number (price of goods sold); in the case of 495.00, the VAT 20% could be 412.50. I think the total item price contains 20% VAT, so the VAT would actually be 82.50 (total item price @ 495.00 divided by 1.20 gives the price of goods sold @ 412.50, and the difference between 495.00 and 412.50 is the VAT @ 20% of 412.50).

Whatever.
It's still a he*l of a lot less than the 624 ELC is charging.

 

[saunders]

...
Is VAT really 20% of the total item price (495.00) or does the total item price contain 20% of VAT determined from a lower number (price of goods sold); in the case of 495.00, the VAT 20% could be 412.50. I think the total item price contains 20% VAT, so the VAT would actually be 82.50 (total item price @ 495.00 divided by 1.20 gives the price of goods sold @ 412.50, and the difference between 495.00 and 412.50 is the VAT @ 20% of 412.50).

Whatever.
It's still a he*l of a lot less than the 624 ELC is charging.

Now you're back to comparing another retailer's price vs. the ELC retail price. That retailer chooses to discount a product they bought with their name on it and ELC is retailing their own product at full price. And, as I said before, ELC likely has different needs as a manufacturer, one of which is that they are guaranteeing a replacement free of shipping costs anywhere in the world.

Ahhhh, but trying to reason on this subject is pointless when the authors clearly had their lynch mob ready on the first key stroke ...

 

[SuinBruin]

Now you're back to comparing another retailer's price vs. the ELC retail price. That retailer chooses to discount a product they bought with their name on it and ELC is retailing their own product at full price. And, as I said before, ELC likely has different needs as a manufacturer, one of which is that they are guaranteeing a replacement free of shipping costs anywhere in the world.

Ahhhh, but trying to reason on this subject is pointless when the authors clearly had their lynch mob ready on the first key stroke ...

Not charging VAT when VAT isn't due is not a "discount," unless that word has lost all meaning. And it's not "free" if you're charging an extra $100+ irrespective of whether or not the jacket will be returned. And once again you are speculating as to the cost of that service from ELC. Do you really think it's worth 20% of the (domestic pretax) retail price of each jacket sold overseas? Really?

And even if we assume you're right, why shouldn't ELC be upfront about it and disclose the policy on its web site? Why the slippery language when Jeff asked them about it? People don't hide things when they have nothing to hide.

 

[Jeff M]

...
Is VAT really 20% of the total item price (495.00) or does the total item price contain 20% of VAT determined from a lower number (price of goods sold); in the case of 495.00, the VAT 20% could be 412.50. I think the total item price contains 20% VAT, so the VAT would actually be 82.50 (total item price @ 495.00 divided by 1.20 gives the price of goods sold @ 412.50, and the difference between 495.00 and 412.50 is the VAT @ 20% of 412.50).

Whatever.
It's still a he*l of a lot less than the 624 ELC is charging.

Now you're back to comparing another retailer's price vs. the ELC retail price. That retailer chooses to discount a product they bought with their name on it and ELC is retailing their own product at full price. And, as I said before, ELC likely has different needs as a manufacturer, one of which is that they are guaranteeing a replacement free of shipping costs anywhere in the world.

Ahhhh, but trying to reason on this subject is pointless when the authors clearly had their lynch mob ready on the first key stroke ...

Keep twisting and turning Saunders. The more you keep trying to explain away the situation and try to divert the issue by dragging other makers into the discussion, the longer you keep the issue on the front page of the forum. That's fine with me.

The facts are out there for all to see and come to their own conclusions.

 

[Marv]

Isn't this the BK thread and not the ELC tax thread - I come logging on expecting to see posts relating to the new BK line but no, it's all about ELC still.

Can try and keep the ELC posts on he ELC thread and leave this for the one or two members who have actually got a BK jacket.

 

[FlyingYankee]

Thanks for all your comments, After some break in the Jacket really does fit fine. My advice is to buy them snug and let your body shape the jacket.

 

[Jeff M]

Isn't this the BK thread and not the ELC tax thread - I come logging on expecting to see posts relating to the new BK line but no, it's all about ELC still.

Can try and keep the ELC posts on he ELC thread and leave this for the one or two members who have actually got a BK jacket.

I agree.
I keep trying to.
Keep running into some comments that need some answering

 

[FlyingYankee]

For the money, You Can't go wrong with Kelso A2, No reason to buy Eastman anymore. My Bk is such a lightweight jacket It make you want to wear it all summer long. Hard to believe they haven't sold more than 40 jackets. I guess the move to contract names is a good one.

 

[Roughwear]

and I'm sure sales will shoot up once they have the components.