What do you guys think about this patch?

[a2jacketpatches]

Well, now that you add ALL that info, my thoughts exactly. I have always stuck by how an item was found as a kind of provenance. Here I am thinking she was selling a few items hanging around when there is a pile of it in your hands during this whole discussion. Like you say, at the end of the day it could be a reunion patch anyway, but most likely not considering the behind the scene story of the grouping you bought, were you messing with us or something? :lol:

Let's see the rest of the grouping, the leather patches, it would be interesting to see rare as hens teeth leather Navy flight jacket patches.

 

[bazelot]

Well, now that you add ALL that info, my thoughts exactly. I have always stuck by how an item was found as a kind of provenance. Here I am thinking she was selling a few items hanging around when there is a pile of it in your hands during this whole discussion. Like you say, at the end of the day it could be a reunion patch anyway, but most likely not considering the behind the scene story of the grouping you bought, were you messing with us or something? :lol:

Let's see the rest of the grouping, the leather patches, it would be interesting to see rare as hens teeth leather Navy flight jacket patches.

I was not messing with you guys , I just wanted opinions on the patch alone with not external factors. Being always suspicious about patches I wanted to see what the take was on this one. There were other things that came with it (like dog tags, silk maps, a beautiful chit... but the family was adamant on keeping those). As I said patches are a can of worms and it is really hard to be certain of anything.
THe rare as hens teeth leather patches are not rare, they are just name tags for laether flight jackets (even though one of them is white with highly stylized wings and name which I had never seen before.
THe pilot was aDFC and Navy Cross recipient and he did get hits on Japanese battleships (I have copies of his log book)

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Glad I didn't say it is or it ain't even though some took it that way. But without external factors, the construction method is most certainly more typical of post WW2 patches, not impossible but more typical. If I saw it in a case alone at the flea market for 80- I'd leave it there based on the clues and possibility of this being a reunion patch. If I saw it in a pile of no question WW2 stuff all named all to the same guy, I'd pay a lot more in a heartbeat.

Now in this pile of provenance, you don't have a period photo of him wearing one of these patches thay you decided not to mention, do you??????

Just busting your chops all in good fun

 

[ausreenactor]

Well, now that you add ALL that info, my thoughts exactly.

Some of us were thinking it was good based on only the evidence right in front of us? But the input was derided as
some sort of personal attack? I have been on eBay for around 4-5 hours a day for the last 13 years. If this were a
dealer with feedback of 13000 I would be dubious? You can not create this situation to bolster an eBay sale. All the
indications were there. The son, if there is or was one, would have been able to relay of Dad's adventures in the Pacific
word for word. This lady would be able to tell you all about the family tree and the recipe for Dad's favourite meal.

If others were privy to the details of the pilot and could get a photocopy of some of his honours and awards I would
put the end price and value of the patch much higher than where it is now..

Not every response is an attack. This is the great thing about this place. There is more knowledge here than many
can fathom. And what scares me is that the majority of it is under utilised and rarely relayed.

Couchy

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Well, now that you add ALL that info, my thoughts exactly.

Some of us were thinking it was good based on only the evidence right in front of us? But the input was derided as
some sort of personal attack? I have been on eBay for around 4-5 hours a day for the last 13 years. If this were a
dealer with feedback of 13000 I would be dubious? You can not create this situation to bolster an eBay sale. All the
indications were there. The son, if there is or was one, would have been able to relay of Dad's adventures in the Pacific
word for word. This lady would be able to tell you all about the family tree and the recipe for Dad's favourite meal.

If others were privy to the details of the pilot and could get a photocopy of some of his honours and awards I would
put the end price and value of the patch much higher than where it is now..

Not every response is an attack. This is the great thing about this place. There is more knowledge here than many
can fathom. And what scares me is that the majority of it is under utilised and rarely relayed.

Couchy

I didn't take anything as an attack, thought we were all trying to solve a mystery. Based on the initial info provided, it could easily have been one way or the other and all that was said was just a matter of opinion. But the pile of photos, maps, documents, and whatever else was there adds a lot of credibility to the patches as part of a grouping.

I hear you, I've got the same experience on Ebay along with that many years of picking estate groupings before they hit ebay.

 

[bazelot]

There is his obituary:



His daughter Nan is the seller. I wish i could have bought the rest of the stuff she sold on Ebay before I found out about it. I always try to keep everything together as much as i can.

 

[bazelot]

The pilot:



THe log book:







And the stuff:

 

[bazelot]

 

[bazelot]

 

[bazelot]

 

[ausreenactor]

You wouldn't want to let one of your four nameplates go? Good cash money? Imagine having that AND the patch!!

GREAT grouping...

Couchy

 

[ausreenactor]

You wouldn't want to let one of your four nameplates go? Good cash money? Imagine having that AND the patch!!

GREAT grouping...

Couchy

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Have to say I'm digging the white name tag, haven't seen one like it before. Wondering if it is within regulations or some kind of novelty item. If it was alone without the family of WW2 maps and stuff, I might even question if WW2 vintage or not. Maybe some members following this thread could enlighten me based on the evidence right in front of us.

 

[bazelot]

Have to say I'm digging the white name tag, haven't seen one like it before. Wondering if it is within regulations or some kind of novelty item. If it was alone without the family of WW2 maps and stuff, I might even question if WW2 vintage or not. Maybe some members following this thread could enlighten me based on the evidence right in front of us.

I also like the white name tag. I had never seen one quite like it before. The pilot did not stay in the Navy after the war.

 

[ausreenactor]

Why bother... :roll:

$152.50... but what would I know...

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Have to say I'm digging the white name tag, haven't seen one like it before. Wondering if it is within regulations or some kind of novelty item. If it was alone without the family of WW2 maps and stuff, I might even question if WW2 vintage or not. Maybe some members following this thread could enlighten me based on the evidence right in front of us.

I also like the white name tag. I had never seen one quite like it before. The pilot did not stay in the Navy after the war.

Maybe a reunion name plate just after the war to fit in a plastic pin on. Family have any idea? I would guess not considering they were just a twinkle in daddy's eye when he got all this stuff. How about the USMF guys? I'm on there regularly as I find a very wide range of items. I've done hours of fruitless research on items and finally post a picture there, within an hour I usually get definitive answers. Could you post a link to the squadron patch discussion there, I looked but couldn't find it.

Couchy, if it makes you feel any better, I was just telling what I thought of the patch without any external factors. Nobody questions your knowledge, we were all just offering opinions and as new evidence surfaced, my opinion changed naturally. My apologies if I just could not abandon my thoughts because some might buy this items based on probability, I've lost money that way. This could easily have been a reunion patch and still could be.

 

[bazelot]

THere is the thread:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ ... his-patch/

The nametag is made of really heavy duty leather and the same size as a regular nameplate. Again, impossible to tell when it was made but the manufacture is really high quality and the leather is a bit stiff even though it is still pliable.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

BTW after just reading the thread on USMF, Bill Scott throws an opinion out there that it may be late 40's to early 50's. You may know him as rarepatchman on Ebay. This guy is an authority on patches and his knowledge by far exceeds most of us. He sells 2000- patches on a regular basis. Still not sure about this patch, but I'll pat myself on the back for having a similar assessment to Mr. Scott.

He's not at 13000, but is a dealer at 5000 100% positive. And a rock solid one at that.

 

[unclegrumpy]

BTW after just reading the thread on USMF, Bill Scott throws an opinion out there that it may be late 40's to early 50's. You may know him as rarepatchman on Ebay. This guy is an authority on patches and his knowledge by far exceeds most of us. He sells 2000- patches on a regular basis. Still not sure about this patch, but I'll pat myself on the back for having a similar assessment to Mr. Scott.

I know Bill Scott as well, and if you notice, he did not say "this is the version of this unit's patch that was made and worn in WW II", which he would have confirmed if he knew it to have been. Another similar opinion to Sean and mine comes from Tankbuster....JDK on the USMF.

Part of what I think some are missing, is that there is an academic element to these discussions. It is not a popularity contest or personal if there is disagreement. In this case, nobody is disputing that patch was this veteran's or that it was his unit's design, just when it was made and if it was actually worn in WW II. So far I have not seen any evidence to conclusively support either position.

One aspect many of us who have been studying and researching patches for a long time know, is that many units had wartime designs, but never for many reasons had or wore patches in WW II. However, when they got back home, they saw guys wearing cool patches, and wanted some for themselves. By that time, many if not most of the guys and units had moved on, and thus many of the patches were made and sold through their veterans associations or insignia companies.

Another aspect that comes into play is the manufacture of the patch. A US made patch like this, made on the same machines in 1943, 1946, 1956 or 1966 can very close to being exactly the same. However, there are some subtile differences that can sometimes only be explained from handling a lot of patches, and even then it sometimes comes down to feel.

Interesting, a different version of this patch that was posted on the USMF, and while it not having a pedigree, it does look more like what I would expect a wartime or just postwar patch to look. It also by comparison, makes the patch in this veteran's grouping look newer....but I am only basing that on my experience.

Value is another issue. There are a lot of US patches that were not made or ever worn in WW II that are generally accepted by collectors to be WW II, and thus sell for a lot of money. For example, many ABN patches fall into this category. Following the herd does is not always a guarantee of originality....you might be going over the cliff with everyone else.

Going back to this grouping, with all of the other neat goodies, I could see wanting to add one of these patches to the pile, especially since we know it was his....and because he was awarded the Navy Cross!

Hopefully, there is some more paperwork and a box of medals still coming bazelot's way....

Also, I have seen a few of the white name tags before, and they were all wartime.....and not at all common.

"The President of the United States of America takes pleasure in presenting the Navy Cross to Lieutenant, Junior Grade Arthur Louis Chauvel, United States Naval Reserve, for extraordinary heroism in operations against the enemy while serving as Pilot of a carrier-based Navy Dive Bomber of Bombing Squadron EIGHTEEN (VB-18), attached to the U.S.S. INTREPID (CV-11), in action against enemy Japanese Forces during the Second Battle of the Philippine Sea on 24 October 1944. Braving intense anti-aircraft fire to press home a vigorous dive-bombing attack, Lieutenant, Junior Grade, Chauvel succeeded in scoring a direct hit on a tightly maneuvering enemy battleship. By his outstanding airmanship and courageous fighting spirit, he aided in removing a serious threat to our ground forces in the Philippines, and his unwavering devotion to duty was in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

General Orders: Commander 1st Carrier Task Force Pacific: Serial 0535 (September 11, 1945)"

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Why bother... :roll:

$152.50... but what would I know...

Why bother?
because your input is as important as everyone else, just not the final word. And we all might learn something from each other and nail it in the end.

What would you know?
Did you know that most 1935 BSA National Jamboree patches were never stitched? I found two at an estate sale some time back and one last year in Ca. All three never stitched new condition. A polio outbreak cancelled the Jamboree so it wasn't authorized to put on the uniform.

Also, there's a certain USMC Squadron patch that is frequently found in new condition due to the fact that it was never issued. A Squadron member had them made up on his own after the war some time and sent them to his buddies. I'm not gonna search my books to prove that to anyone, but it just goes to show that there are reasons why you'll find three in a row never stitched. And on the other hand, there's patch examples that you'll never find in new condition. Why? because they were actually used during the war.

I think unclegrumpy hit the nail on the head, we're just trying to figure out if this patch was issued and worn during WW2. Not trying discredit anyone here or the family. And yeah, Bill Scott seems to say in a polite way, if you say so. After a guy just comes out and says so without any reasoning behind it.