Using what I've learned from this forum

[deand]

Here's one for extra credit, but should be easy:

BTW notice the cap he's wearing, and the ones these guys are wearing. They kept using vinyl or leather hunting style caps even past Korea, but the numbers and other adornments seem to have tapered off. The one below lends more evidence to support my homemeade SAC repro in its basic color scheme, just absent crew position ID on the fronts and unit insignia:

dean

 

[deeb7]

I'm going to settle on a Lion 1957 MA-1...

On the forum, we like to discuss the dates of the early contracts, so I won't suggest one now, but the Lion Uniform MA-1 is certainly earler than 1957.

I think the 1957 date was popularised by Buzz Rickson ... someone must have pointed out the error, as it's now deleted from their listing.

http://www.buzzricksons.jp/product/us_a ... -0013.html

I notice they're still trying to tell us that the MA-1 was first issued in 1950 ... pay attention, buzz. :?

... and Danny's memory is correct regarding the zig-zag stitching.

 

[deand]

I'm going to settle on a Lion 1957 MA-1...

On the forum, we like to discuss the dates of the early contracts, so I won't suggest one now, but the Lion Uniform MA-1 is certainly earler than 1957.

I think the 1957 date was popularised by Buzz Rickson ... someone must have pointed out the error, as it's now deleted from their listing.

http://www.buzzricksons.jp/product/us_a ... -0013.html

I notice they're still trying to tell us that the MA-1 was first issued in 1950 ... pay attention, buzz. :?

... and Danny's memory is correct regarding the zig-zag stitching.

Good point, David, I'm in no position to be dogmatic about any of this. least of all speculative dates of contracts. Got to avoid coming off as prententious. I just wish I knew the facts...and that they were authoritatively available somewhere.






dean

 

[deeb7]

Good point, David, I'm in no position to be dogmatic about any of this. least of all speculative dates of contracts. Got to avoid coming off as prententious. I just wish I knew the facts...and that they were authoritatively available somewhere.

I wasn't referring to you, Dean, discuss was just my polite way of saying that we like to argue.

The Japanese book Full Gear is the best source for dates, and contract details. It isn't complete, and doesn't claim to be 100% correct, but it's a good reference book.

http://www.fullgear.net/index

FWIW a table in the back gives the date for MIL-J-8279, the MA-1, as 27-SEP-1953.

 

[watchmanjimg]

[D]iscuss was just my polite way of saying that we like to argue.

Personally I'd rather characterize our discourse as "spirited exchange" among friends, but I think you made a valid point earlier by mentioning Buzz Ricksons' focus on 1957 as the birth year of the MA-1. Prior to the various citations to Full Gear and other references this was all many of us had to go on, but I think by now it's abundantly clear that the MA-1 came about prior to 1957.

FWIW a table in the back gives the date for MIL-J-8279, the MA-1, as 27-SEP-1953.

If correct, this would seem to dispose of any notion that the MA-1 was worn in the Korean War as the conflict ended precisely two months before the 8279 specification. As we've discussed, the B-15Ds that came about a bit earlier could possibly have seen action but my primary contention has always been that the sage jackets are a poor representative example of Korean War nylon. The OD and blue types would have been much more common.

 

[Willy McCoy]

The only reason I pointed out the rank insignia was to ascertain it's use in a time frame rather than to date jacket by it.

 

[deand]

Certainly, there must exist official documentation, including photographic types, of the MA-1 introduction in the files of the Quarter Master's Department archives. Or not. And how the heck do the Japanese end up on the high ground of information about American gear, other than simply being driven by a desire to know. Nothing at all against them knowing this stuff, it's just that it seems that we could find out, too, and dare I say emulate their expertise. My "newbie" status is showing here, I realize. Where did they get their information: where can we get it, and more?





dean

 

[Tim P]

I wonder if the fact that the stitching around the collar is slightly less than parallel indicates addition post manufacture?

 

[flightmac]

[/quote]
It looks like Maj. Carl A. Farmer hung onto his B-15 D (MOD). At first I was thinking it was a first series MA-1. The squared off wind flap was the norm for that series. But then I noticed the reverse zig-zagging on the wind flap. Also notice he has the plastic encased rank insignia that is a second or third choice favored here. The jacket is less than pristine and it may smell of cigarettes too. Truly a beautiful jacket just the same. He's probably a pilot of either a tanker or B-52 out of Walker AFB New Mexico. He looks very stressed out like his performance is being judged in a competition. There is also a scoring card on his lanyard. He was buried at Arlington in March of '66.[/quote]



Not specifically jacket related, but FYI for SA (situational awareness); I don't believe that is a scoring card, but a Restricted Access aka "Line" Badge. Worn by maintenance and flightcrews, it's always to be visible when on the flightline and not supposed to be when outside the area.

 

[deand]

Here's a close of the card from another phto in the series:

dean

 

[flightmac]

Yep. A little different from the ones I was issued, but basically the same. The numbers that were not blacked out indicated which restricted areas you were allowed in. It was actually not just for the flightline area; but allowed access (with the right number showing) to the Command Post, munitions area, etc. I just noticed, it looks like he has another badge. Don't know what to say about that. :?

 

[Tim P]

I remember my line badge very well.

 

[Weasel_Loader]

I still have my very first one issued when I was at Barksdale. They usually took them away when you were issued new ones, but I lost mine and found it years later in some boxes. We still uses something very similar but they are hard plastic now. Remember what they used to black out the areas not accessible? It was always an eraser from a pencil dipped in ink!

Remember telling newbies they don't have BLB on their badges? :lol:

 

[deeb7]

Certainly, there must exist official documentation, including photographic types, of the MA-1 introduction in the files of the Quarter Master's Department archives. Or not. And how the heck do the Japanese end up on the high ground of information about American gear, other than simply being driven by a desire to know. Nothing at all against them knowing this stuff, it's just that it seems that we could find out, too, and dare I say emulate their expertise. My "newbie" status is showing here, I realize. Where did they get their information: where can we get it, and more?

Yes, the information is available ... but not all of it is online, or conveniently in one place. As the author writes ...

For over 25 years, I have been a researcher and collector of vintage US flying clothing. My interests are both of US Army (Air Force) and US Navy, especially the items in 1920-1930's. I published a book on them at my own cost in Japanese language with some valuable information that I have researched at NARA, archives in NASM and other famous museums in US.

 

[deand]

Certainly, there must exist official documentation, including photographic types, of the MA-1 introduction in the files of the Quarter Master's Department archives. Or not. And how the heck do the Japanese end up on the high ground of information about American gear, other than simply being driven by a desire to know. Nothing at all against them knowing this stuff, it's just that it seems that we could find out, too, and dare I say emulate their expertise. My "newbie" status is showing here, I realize. Where did they get their information: where can we get it, and more?

Yes, the information is available ... but not all of it is online, or conveniently in one place. As the author writes ...

For over 25 years, I have been a researcher and collector of vintage US flying clothing. My interests are both of US Army (Air Force) and US Navy, especially the items in 1920-1930's. I published a book on them at my own cost in Japanese language with some valuable information that I have researched at NARA, archives in NASM and other famous museums in US.

Granted. May others follow in his steps, where they can. I'd love to be one of them. Until then, we stand on the shoulders of others and should be, and are, thankful for their work.




dean

 

[Willy McCoy]

Ever consider shooting off an email to Wright Fields Aero-medical offices? Seems that y'all are in pretty good with the United States Air Force. I am sure they have all contract models and dates. I would think they'd be more than happy to help those who show an interest. Over the last few years I know people here have been trying to put together a contract list. Just thought I'd bring it up.

 

[Weasel_Loader]

I actually started work on a website that would have been devoted to nylon, but gave up on it early last year when my interest shifted to leather and cloth jackets. I actually started construction on pages for L-2B and MA-1s. They would show examples of original jacket contracts and I had even replicated each contracts labels in a digital format since some photos of actual jacket labels were not the best. I had even built a data base showing how much one could expect to pay for certain jackets as I tracked jacket sales for almost two years and recorded all of it. It was a lot of work and I just lost interest.

It would be great to see someone really build an English website that had all the details of every nylon contract. Oh wait, JCs disk comes pretty close!

 

[usafwso]

As for the line badges: The open numbers, if you have the letter "E", that means that you can escort individuals into those areas. Everywhere I was stationed, they were pretty militant if you lost one and when it was time to PCS, they certainly wanted the badge back during out processing out of the squadron.

 

[usafwso]

I have an old USAF AFM 64-4 Tech manual, Xeroxed back in the early 90's and contains all sorts of source data with regards to our little nylon habit. Unfortunately, I am just off for a 12 day trip and will do some scanning and uploading upon my return. Some of the info may be useful to our fellow members.

 

[deand]

Imagine: A Vintage Nylon Jackets forum! In English! The on-line equivalent of Full Gear for those who pile on nylon!






dean