Two G1 and a load of questions !

[Tenfifteen]

still waiting for my wrists/waist band... can't wait to work on my 7823B !

For the Brill Bros. I'm starting to think that it really could be a goatskin, I read dozen of thread on the forum, and most of the time owners say that cowhide is heavy, stiff and cardboard like.
My Brill is really lightweight ! The Irvin B Foster is heavier, the Brill is also really supple, as thick as the Irvin and the feel under the finger is pretty much similar.

Here's a close up compare

and here some overview of the two jackets :

Unfortunatly the zipper has been replaced with a cheap (but sturdy) recent one
(But as the Brill is not a collector, rather my daily jacket... so it doesn't really matter !)

The Irvin B Foster (the leather is now supple, the zipper works almost fine)
The last thing to do is to change the cuff and waist band (as soon as I receive my replacement)

 

[Tenfifteen]

umpfff... did it ! I used the original holes
next : the waist band....

That's not perfect, it's my first sewing But I really wanted to do all by myself on my old 7823B

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Skip is completely right, neatsfoot oil will rot stitching over time. Leather likes it, cotton certainly does not.

Never had any such problem with Proberts Neats Foot Oil, the Rolls Royce of leather treatment but almost impossible to find these days

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Quote The leather was stiff, with paint smudges and snags on the leather.

If the paint is still on your jacket, removal is real easy provided it's gloss, if you need the method just ask

 

[Smithy]

Never had any such problem with Proberts Neats Foot Oil, the Rolls Royce of leather treatment but almost impossible to find these days

I've always heard that pure neatsfoot oil can be aggressive with cotton stitching due to the pH nature of the oil. I've talked about this with the artefact conservator at the aviation museum I work for due to my interest in my leather jackets and he said he won't use neatsfoot products as they will darken leather and can be aggressive on old natural fibre stitching. Admittedly he's talking about preserving historic leather flying kit which can be incredibly fragile due to age and wanting to retard any more ageing with a view to keeping any surviving colour and conditions. He also mentioned the difference in tolerance between leather and stitching in terms of the acidity of any treatment. Once again he's dealing with old artefacts which require a certain level of delicacy.

With my modern jackets he said they won't need so much care but he suggested using a product which wasn't pure neatsfoot oil. Seemed to be that it's OK as an ingredient but not wonderful if the sole ingredient where the pH level can be unsuitable for other materials other than the leather.

 

[robrinay]

Interestingly Wikipedia puts forward a compromise position to the above two perspectives, implying that ‘additives’ to neats foot oil products are guilty of damaging stitching. Perhaps Proberts is unadulterated?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neatsfoot_oil

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Hi Smithy

Your Avaiation museum suggested that " neatsfoot products will darken leather"
We first started using neatsfoot oil back in the 1970s....Proberts only after a couple of tries with other products......because it didn't darken vintage leather for more than during the first 24 hours.
Admittedly we never used very much and only on really stiff, dried out Horsehide, but the beauty of the treatment was that the follwing day the patina and colour of the leather looked exactly as it had before treating it, yet the leather felt much nicer. Never noticed any problems with the stitching although I doubt I would have seen any as we were only using it on jackets ready to sell, and they didn't hang around long in The Thrift Shop
More recently we have tried a couple of other makes (couldn't find Proberts) and didn't like the results.........that said I'm the world's most reluctant user of leather treatments on jackets

 

[Smithy]

Hi Smithy

Your Avaiation museum suggested that " neatsfoot products will darken leather"
We first started using neatsfoot oil back in the 1970s....Proberts only after a couple of tries with other products......because it didn't darken vintage leather for more than during the first 24 hours.
Admittedly we never used very much and only on really stiff, dried out Horsehide, but the beauty of the treatment was that the follwing day the patina and colour of the leather looked exactly as it had before treating it, yet the leather felt much nicer. Never noticed any problems with the stitching although I doubt I would have seen any as we were only using it on jackets ready to sell, and they didn't hang around long in The Thrift Shop
More recently we have tried a couple of other makes (couldn't find Proberts) and didn't like the results.........that said I'm the world's most reluctant user of leather treatments on jackets

Hi Ken,

In all fairness the procedures they use in a museum are pretty extreme and in many cases artefacts are often in a pretty degraded state to begin with so they're obviously very careful and conservative in terms of how they treat anything. Historically unique objects are also displayed in humidity and light level controlled environments so it's obviously very different from a jacket that one of us is wearing around and using.

Interestingly he told me that the most difficult and problematic objects are actually fabrics and natural materials. Historic aircraft and aircraft parts are much easier (once you've dealt with the asbestos in the airframes and radiation dangers with the instruments).

Cheers,

Tim

 

[Tenfifteen]

Ok ! The Irvin B Foster is now fully wearable ! Supple, Wrist/Waist band brand new, really nice look but....
There is something that doesn't match.. don't know what, my Brill bros. fits me better, I feel batter with the Brill, althrough it's a 40 (42 for the Irvin)
The Brill is thighter but I prefer the cut... I don't feel well with the Irvin... a shame as I prefer the color and the colar of the Irvin

 

[Marv]

Both really excellent looking G1s, I have a 1971 Brill Bros and I have to agree with the on the fit which is really great and is pretty much my go to jacket when I want a G1.

I also have a 1977 Ralph Edwards (cowhide), 1968 Martin Lane (goat), a mid 1950's LW Foster (goat - this is the best fitting G1 of all) and finally a more current issue PHARR Brand (cow).

 

[Tenfifteen]

Thank you Marv ! There are sometime cheap late 60's (1968) Star/Ralph/Martin Lane on ebay.. usualy with some work on the cuff/wrist (but now I know how to deal with )
I check eBay sales very often for a good deal to replace my Irvin Foster

 

[Walt1812]

Does the 68 Martin Lane have a real mutton collar on it?
Anyone know if that year production was mixed with synthetic or all genuine? I’ve recently gotten my hands on one and I think it’s real fur, but can’t confirm it for sure.

 

[Tenfifteen]

...I also have a 1977 Ralph Edwards (cowhide)....

Marv, do you have pictures of the Ralph ? I'd really like to see how the cowhide looks like on a G1 !

 

[Roughwear]

Does the 68 Martin Lane have a real mutton collar on it?
Anyone know if that year production was mixed with synthetic or all genuine? I’ve recently gotten my hands on one and I think it’s real fur, but can’t confirm it for sure.

I have a 1968 Martin Lane jacket and mine has a mouton collar. From 1970 some makers, such as Star Sportswear were using synthetic mouton.

 

[Tenfifteen]

All the 7823D (until late 68/69) have mouton colar (Star/Ralph/Brill/etc..) 7823E from 1970 have all black dynal collar ^^ Some late D series (post 1970) may have dynal too

 

[Jorgeenriqueaguilera]

Here is my 68 Martin Lane real mouton collar...

 

[Jorgeenriqueaguilera]

Ok ! The Irvin B Foster is now fully wearable ! Supple, Wrist/Waist band brand new, really nice look but....
There is something that doesn't match.. don't know what, my Brill bros. fits me better, I feel batter with the Brill, althrough it's a 40 (42 for the Irvin)
The Brill is thighter but I prefer the cut... I don't feel well with the Irvin... a shame as I prefer the color and the colar of the Irvin

Btw I love the fur color of your Irvin B. Foster, I have Brill Bros from the 70’s (cowhide very stiff) and definitely yours looks more like a goat! Will try to get some pics for you!

 

[silvio76]

Hello there,

I actually have two G1 and I have some questions for the wise guys who would like to answer me

The first one is my daily jacket, it's a late Vietnam era Brill Bros. from 1973 as indicated by the label :
JACKET, FLYERS,
INTERMEDIATE, TYPE G1
SIZE 40
MIL-J-7823E (AS)
BRILL BROS. INC.
8415-268-7799
DSA100-73-C-0035

Good condition, the leather is pretty supple (far more than my 1963 Irvin B Foster), the lining is like new, the zip as been replace (no name) as the cuffs (darker than the waist band)
The general color and the dark "faux fur" (I guess) is typical of the post 1970 G1. Found on eBay for 50$.

My first question is.... is it goatskin or cowhide with a "goatskin alike" grain ?
Here's some pictures :

The second is more interesting, it was terrific when I bought it (29$ !!) The leather was stiff, with paint smudges and snags on the leather. But I really loved the color !
The zip cursor (Conmar) was blocked and the wrists were gone (the waist band is clearly not original, to small) I will replace them, I have some original wool seal brown wrists and waist (with the rib-rack patern)
I did some works on the leather and the zip (now it's a lot more supple)
The zip works but the leather is really tight and twisted at the bottom (the first 5 cm) Is there something to do ? (tried some candle wax, it works great at the top of the zipper.. but the bottom is still a pain because of the crumpled leather)
The tag says :
JACKET, FLYING, MAN'S
INTERMEDIATE, TYPE G1
SPEC.MIL-J7823B (WEP)
BUREAU OF NAVAL WEAPONS USN
IRVIN B.FOSTER SPTSWEAR CO.
CONTRACT NO.DSA-1-2071-63-C
SIZE 42

Curiously, the size 42 of the Irvin feels a bit smaler than the size 40 of the Brill Brother !
I think the late G1s size taller than the old one, did you noticed that or it's my jacket who has shrunk ? )

Unfortunately the picture from the "cuff replacement" post are no more on line.. thanks photobucket.. (http://vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/cuff-replacement-tutorial.6207/)
I know a shop in Paris that repairs leather jacket.. but I'm afraid they would not do a serious job (sew in the original holes)

Here's some pictures :

Thx,
Stephane

It is made of goatskin.