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Rust knits B10's - argument over?
- Thread starter johnwayne
- Start date
Teddy
Well-Known Member
I definitely see your point, Pilot. My only argument would be that the rust knit is still 100% mil-spec wool just like a truly authentic B-10 in a different color, which I can tolerate as it falls in the grey zone between military jacket repro and military-inspired jacket. If the alpaca lining is only 80% wool or if some original designs are missing, then it actually becomes military-inspired and Gibson's argument also collapses for me.
Somewhere I heard that Superior Togs actually produced these rust knit B-10s? Is that proven not true? Thanks!
stanier
Well-Known Member
Skyhawk
Well-Known Member
Zero. But all the other A-2 and civy jackets By them I have seen have had brown knits. That's what I meant.
I have yet to see an original B10 with the red rust knits by any maker.
Pilot
Well-Known Member
I am fully aware of that this red knits on original WW2 B-10’s is a hot subject ( there is a full thread on this here).
I searched the Internet and collectors photo posts...never saw rusty knits nowhere.
I saw several togs when searching, all OD knits....I am happy to be convinced otherwise with evidence.
I searched the Internet and collectors photo posts...never saw rusty knits nowhere.
I saw several togs when searching, all OD knits....I am happy to be convinced otherwise with evidence.
Pilot
Well-Known Member
No WW2 evidence on this ever found.There is also a thread on this here.
Teddy
Well-Known Member
History Preservation site:
"Some wartime contractors were permitted to use reddish or berry-colored wool knit cuffs and waistbands on flight jacket production, the most notable being Aero Leather of Beacon, NY in the production of A-2 Flight Jackets, but at least one B-10 contractor also utilized this same knit color and this was Superior Togs. Superior Togs also produced many of their B-10 Flight Jackets with an outer shell color that was distinctly olive drab vs. the darker green observed from most B-10 contractors."
Buzz Rickson Europe:
"This is a faithful recreation of their model. B-10s were usually made with olive green knit parts, but for this particular model the company untilised rust coloured knit which gave it a distinctive look."
While BR Europe implies that the rust knit is artificially added for distinctive look, the word "usually" also leaves some ambiguity. Rather confusing language.
"Some wartime contractors were permitted to use reddish or berry-colored wool knit cuffs and waistbands on flight jacket production, the most notable being Aero Leather of Beacon, NY in the production of A-2 Flight Jackets, but at least one B-10 contractor also utilized this same knit color and this was Superior Togs. Superior Togs also produced many of their B-10 Flight Jackets with an outer shell color that was distinctly olive drab vs. the darker green observed from most B-10 contractors."
Buzz Rickson Europe:
"This is a faithful recreation of their model. B-10s were usually made with olive green knit parts, but for this particular model the company untilised rust coloured knit which gave it a distinctive look."
While BR Europe implies that the rust knit is artificially added for distinctive look, the word "usually" also leaves some ambiguity. Rather confusing language.
Teddy
Well-Known Member
Having read what many have to say, I lean toward that there might not be rust-knit B-10s. Still love the Buzz Superior Togs though. The color is just beautiful.
However, the argument that all original B-10s we have seen are not rust-knitted does not guarantee that no original rust-knit B-10s ever existed (though we really think this is the case). This is similar to Nassim Taleb's opening words on the concept of black swans in the same titled book. The argument that all swans are white is fragile because even if we have seen 10,000 white swans, the moment we see a black swan, our entire argument collapses. It's only robust if we will never see a black swan, which we are not sure does not exist...
However, the argument that all original B-10s we have seen are not rust-knitted does not guarantee that no original rust-knit B-10s ever existed (though we really think this is the case). This is similar to Nassim Taleb's opening words on the concept of black swans in the same titled book. The argument that all swans are white is fragile because even if we have seen 10,000 white swans, the moment we see a black swan, our entire argument collapses. It's only robust if we will never see a black swan, which we are not sure does not exist...
stanier
Well-Known Member
I think that ultimately at the moment this has to come down to a personal conclusion.
If one colour photograph from the period was found or a jacket was found with the red knits I think what would happen is the discussion would shift to a debate on whether or not the knits were original or field replacements.
For me, I think we need a dialogue with Buzz (in Japan, NOT their European or US agents who add no clarity at all IMHO) to understand what information that have and the jacket they have. I have the perception that Buzz are impossible to communicate with or and don’t engage in conversations even if with a Japanese speaker, is that correct?
And if it’s possble to check Superior Togs company records and see what they did. Given the information on the A-2 found in Gary Eastman’s book on the subject suggests this may not be such a long shot.
If one colour photograph from the period was found or a jacket was found with the red knits I think what would happen is the discussion would shift to a debate on whether or not the knits were original or field replacements.
For me, I think we need a dialogue with Buzz (in Japan, NOT their European or US agents who add no clarity at all IMHO) to understand what information that have and the jacket they have. I have the perception that Buzz are impossible to communicate with or and don’t engage in conversations even if with a Japanese speaker, is that correct?
And if it’s possble to check Superior Togs company records and see what they did. Given the information on the A-2 found in Gary Eastman’s book on the subject suggests this may not be such a long shot.
Teddy
Well-Known Member
@Pilot Agree haha! Was trying to be respectful to the companies but the wording is very tricky.
@stanier Fully agree with both of your points.
When there's ambiguity that might not be easily resolved due to the complexity of the world, and if we are persistent with the absolute truth still, then it's a conclusion driven by personal preference and belief. To each his/her own.
Digging into the actual records might really help, if a complete set of records exists
Hopefully some US-based members might be curious enough to take up the task!
@stanier Fully agree with both of your points.
When there's ambiguity that might not be easily resolved due to the complexity of the world, and if we are persistent with the absolute truth still, then it's a conclusion driven by personal preference and belief. To each his/her own.
Digging into the actual records might really help, if a complete set of records exists
Hopefully some US-based members might be curious enough to take up the task!
Pilot
Well-Known Member
Buzz and their fabrication sites have a lot of expats and or naitve english speaking employees. Question is, whether they will ever discuss this subject, hence admitting their invention or creativity in respect of authenticity.
stanier
Well-Known Member
I agree entirely Pilot, and I think how the question might be framed to them would need some thought, possibly not even referencing the red knits directly but certainly crafted in a neutral context.
At the end of the day apart from a few folk on this forum I don’t think they’d sell one more or one less B-10 whatever the truth of the matter is.
Pilot
Well-Known Member
Thx and the last words are well said.
stanier
Well-Known Member
Maybe a question at one of the roadshows, along the lines of “I’m interested in the detail differences between the different B-10 contracts, such as whether or not epaulets, different collar shapes and colours and different shades of shell and knit colour. Do you have any original jackets or interesting photo’s I could look at please?”....
I wonder if they have a permanent location for their original collection? Or a display at the Buzz / Toyo HQ?
Smithy
Well-Known Member
You really have to remember that what's written on their and their retailer sites is marketing copy. They're designed to sell jackets first and foremost and they're not descriptions of museum exhibits.
BR and their US distribution chum got caught out recently regarding dubious claims about their red MA-1 and their latest "NASA" release. I don't think the vast majority really give a damn what jackets they bring out and release so long as they don't claim things are actual replicas when in certain cases they're not.
Pilot
Well-Known Member
Last I saw was in a shop, with a separate room specially arranged for that event.
Will check and revert.
Pilot
Well-Known Member
Well said...Thx
