Original Jackets vs. Repros; what are your thoughts?

[mulceber]

I was wondering about one of Juanito's mint A-2s... I think its a Perry or 1756... But based on all the thoughts above, I wonder...

If you came across a mint, literally in the box original WWII A-2, that fit.... would you keep it in the box/ stored in a climate controlled environment etc.. Retaining its originality/ quality... And value!
Or, would you wear it like you would any high end A-2?

I mean, its an original mid/late 1940s item, mint, rare and unworn... But never taken into the air or combat, so maybe doesn't have that personal lustre, but it does have that historical mystique.

The person to ask, I think, would be Jorge, since he was in exactly the position you're describing last year.

 

[B-Man2]

Dmitry
Spot on and well said .

 

[Brettafett]

The person to ask, I think, would be Jorge, since he was in exactly the position you're describing last year.

Eh, face slap... multitasking... my bad... I was referring to Jorge. Perhaps he will pop on and comment. But what would YOU do?
Me... Im not sure. probably... If it fit well, then all my 'originals' babble would go out the window and I'd wear the hell out of it.

 

[MaydayWei]

I was wondering about one of Jorge's mint A-2s... I think its a Perry or 1756... But based on all the thoughts above, I wonder...

If you came across a mint, literally in the box original WWII A-2, that fit.... would you keep it in the box/ stored in a climate controlled environment etc.. Retaining its originality/ quality... And value!
Or, would you wear it like you would any high end A-2?

I mean, its an original mid/late 1940s item, mint, rare and unworn... But never taken into the air or combat, so maybe doesn't have that personal lustre, but it does have that historical mystique.

I think this is a great hypothetical to consider.
Would an item, hypothetically detached from all the historical and horrific factors of WWII, truly be anything more than it is?
In its physical form, it is literally not different at all from the equivalent Goodwear; would it then be no more revered than a Goodwear? Should it be treated as such?
Honestly, if I found an A-2 in box, brand new and unissued... I'd probably donate it to a museum.
But, hey, thank god we're not in that difficult position!

 

[mulceber]

Eh, face slap... multitasking... my bad... I was referring to Jorge. Perhaps he will pop on and comment. But what would YOU do?
Me... Im not sure. probably... If it fit well, then all my 'originals' babble would go out the window and I'd wear the hell out of it.

The problem is, that NOS A-2 jacket is now an historical artifact as well. It may not have gone through combat on a pilot's back, but it and the box it's in provide insight into what a quartermaster's warehouse would have looked like, what these jackets are like out of the box, etc. So it's really the same question as "should you wear a WW2 artifact?" Honestly, if I had one still in the box like Jorge does, I'd be inclined to construct a climate-controlled display for it, where the jacket would be lying out, unfolded, and the box would be standing, one side (carefully) opened, right next to it.

 

[B-Man2]

I think this is a great hypothetical to consider.
Would an item, hypothetically detached from all the historical and horrific factors of WWII, truly be anything more than it is?
In its physical form, it is literally not different at all from the equivalent Goodwear; would it then be no more revered than a Goodwear? Should it be treated as such?
Honestly, if I found an A-2 in box, brand new and unissued... I'd probably donate it to a museum.
But, hey, thank god we're not in that difficult position!

Interesting question ... so let’s look at it from a couple of different perspectives . Let’s say you found a 1929 professional baseball that was in the original box, and that box was marked “ 1929 World Series “ Now the ball had never been used in that game, BUT it was marked on the box that it was made for that game . So the question is .. “Would you take that ball out and use it to play catch with your kid or use it in a pick up game ?”
Next question for some of you Gun collectors out there . You collect WWII pistols and you have a documented P-38 German pistol that was captured at the Walter Factory before it had been shipped out for use by German military forces . The gun is in mint condition in the original issued box , and has never been fired . Would you take that gun to the range and run a couple of rounds through it just to say you tried it out ?
So I’m only asking these questions to see if your perspective changes with the situation .
So guys please jump in with your thoughts .

 

[Brettafett]

Baseball.... Hell NO! It'd stay in its original case on display as a true collectible. There are tons of balls to play with.
Gun... Mmmmm Probably the same... Keep it in original condition. I'd sell it, buy another A-2 and go back and reclaim my PPL.
Original mint A-2 jacket in the box - Call me a cad or a maverick, but I'd still wear the jacket (only if it fit my long arms lol) - I'd probably store the box and documentation carefully, or donate to a museum.

Some things aren't meant to make sense....
Id add, its like finding a brand new boxed original condition J-3 cub in someones shed. Build it and fly it ? or continue to store it. I'd build and fly the thing!

 

[B-Man2]

Baseball.... Hell NO! It'd stay in its original case on display as a true collectible. There are tons of balls to play with.
Gun... Mmmmm Probably the same... Keep it in original condition. I'd sell it, but another A-2 and go back and reclaim my PPL.
Original mint A-2 jacket in the box - Call me a cad or a maverick, but I'd still wear the jacket (only if it fit my long arms lol) - I'd probably store the box and documentation carefully, or donate to a museum.

Some things aren't meant to make sense....
Id add, its like finding a brand new boxed original condition J-3 cub in someones shed. Build it and fly it ? or continue to store it. I'd build and fly the thing!

Well ... you have to admit ... it made you think about your choices for a second

 

[B-Man2]

Baseball.... Hell NO! It'd stay in its original case on display as a true collectible. There are tons of balls to play with.
Gun... Mmmmm Probably the same... Keep it in original condition. I'd sell it, buy another A-2 and go back and reclaim my PPL.
Original mint A-2 jacket in the box - Call me a cad or a maverick, but I'd still wear the jacket (only if it fit my long arms lol) - I'd probably store the box and documentation carefully, or donate to a museum.

Some things aren't meant to make sense....
Id add, its like finding a brand new boxed original condition J-3 cub in someones shed. Build it and fly it ? or continue to store it. I'd build and fly the thing!

BTW Bretta
In answer to the question you posed ....
I would NEVER fly in anything that I had a hand in building

 

[JimO]

Next question for some of you Gun collectors out there . You collect WWII pistols and you have a documented P-38 German pistol that was captured at the Walter Factory before it had been shipped out for use by German military forces . The gun is in mint condition in the original issued box , and has never been fired . Would you take that gun to the range and run a couple of rounds through it just to say you tried it out ?

Burt-

You know that I would put that P-38 up on Gunbroker faster than you could say "Parabellum" (Especially in this current inflated market!) But if it was a Pachmayr Combat Special or Devel Gammon, that would be an entirely different story...

That baseball would mean absolutely nothing to me and I'd sell it even faster.

As for the original A-2, I'd sell it to Jorge and wear my Five Star or 30 yr. old Avirex.

On the other hand, the things I hold truly hold near & dear to my heart may mean absolutely nothing to the next guy. Perceived value varies with the individual.

 

[Brettafett]

Im just glad you didn't say, "I would NEVER fly in anything that YOU had a hand in building "

 

[B-Man2]

Burt-

You know that I would put that P-38 up on Gunbroker faster than you could say "Parabellum" (Especially in this current inflated market!) But if it was a Pachmayr Combat Special or Devel Gammon, that would be an entirely different story...

That baseball would mean absolutely nothing to me and I'd sell it even faster.

As for the original A-2, I'd sell it to Jorge and wear my Five Star or 30 yr. old Avirex.

On the other hand, the things I hold truly hold near & dear to my heart may mean absolutely nothing to the next guy. Perceived value varies with the individual.

JimO
Excellent point . Value is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[B-Man2]

Im just glad you didn't say, "I would NEVER fly in anything that YOU had a hand in building "

Bretta
Actually, I would be much more accepting and comfortable flying in something you built rather than me ! .
As Confucius once said “ It’s a wise man who knowith his limitations....!

 

[ausreenactor]

When I first joined the forum years back there were a lot more guys posting about originals (as has recently been alluded too). It was great to see the depth of interest and knowledge being was shared.

An original A-2 in wearable condition became the Holy grail. Seeing originals in museums, at Airshows (Gary brought and wore a couple to Duxford in the past) and then actually handling some and eventually trying them on... and then one day owning one. Was all part of the journey for me.
I certainly respect those who choose to purchase and care for these babies... Its important that someone does. Our interest (be it as wearers, collectors or as collector-wearers...) in some way honours these guys. Just reading some of these posts, where someone has purchased an original and then gone and found out about the original owner, contacted their families etc... Its incredible. Really.

Just for me... I never felt comfortable wearing the one original A-2 I owned out & about. Id inspect it and try it on occasionally, and as Burt said, think about where it has been and about who has worn it... But also about aspects of its fragility...
But also like Nick said, Id not feel quite right wearing it... Like I didn't earn it... Weird maybe... So, it sat in a closet. I'm not a collector per se, nor am I able to display, nor do I feel inclined to take care of it...
I am very glad I got to own one, but happy to leave them to the guys who have this keen interest. And continue to look forward to pics and stories about them...

I'm with you. The Bronco is to marvel at and ponder where it went....

Rank, decal and patch holes make it a real one and not a spare from the supply stream. I really appreciate that element of my one and only 'original'...

 

[MaydayWei]

Baseball.... Hell NO! It'd stay in its original case on display as a true collectible. There are tons of balls to play with.
Gun... Mmmmm Probably the same... Keep it in original condition. I'd sell it, buy another A-2 and go back and reclaim my PPL.
Original mint A-2 jacket in the box - Call me a cad or a maverick, but I'd still wear the jacket (only if it fit my long arms lol) - I'd probably store the box and documentation carefully, or donate to a museum.

Some things aren't meant to make sense....
Id add, its like finding a brand new boxed original condition J-3 cub in someones shed. Build it and fly it ? or continue to store it. I'd build and fly the thing!

I do think what you are saying makes sense.
Its awfully close to the argument from utilitarianism.
I hate philosophy, so the fast and simple of it is that a mint aircraft could simply be enjoyed by more people if flown than the pistol, the jacket, or the ball.
To take these analogies further, a mint P38 Walter, if shot, could only be enjoyed by the shooter and a few other close individuals. Equally so with the mint A2, only to be enjoyed by the wearer and those who see it. Likewise, with the ball by the catcher, the catchee, and potential onlookers.
Accordingly, donating the pistol, the ball, or the jacket yields the greatest amount of enjoyment for the greatest number of people.
In contrast, building a mint plane and flying it (say at an air show) would be the aircraft's way of making the greatest number of people smile.

 

[Micawber]

Been thinking about this thread and meaning to respond but it has been fairly fast moving and there have been so many interesting points popping up that it often outran my current rather slow moving thought processes.

I don't think I want to get embroiled in the psychology, after all we are talking about government issued pieces of clothing, or copies thereof so the reference to Burt's 'perspective' thread is entirely valid.

Over the years I have owned a number of original jackets and handled more. While I may have been happy to throw on a generic (ie no provenance) original as day to day wear, a Jeep ride, trip to our museum or 101 other things 20, 25+ years ago I would not be so blasé today. I only have to cast my mind back to the fact I was collecting WW2 stuff (often considered redundant 'surplus' back then) within 25 years of the end of the war that I realise that 25 years is quite a long time and offers ample opportunity for gear to deteriorate significantly. So those original B-3's, B-6's, D-1's, Irvins, A-2's, battledress tunics, greatcoats, Mackinaws, M-41's etc I slung on and off day in, day out all those years ago have had a quarter of a century more to deteriorate, they are almost antiques themselves now. My big collecting days are over and collections dispersed to the wind a long time ago. I no longer wish to live obsessing about this or that rare must have. I've also done my museum stint presenting original gear and their stories to the public and services alike and above all is the fact that I had chance to meet, mingle and get to know quite a number of the people who wore the stuff originally. I still have the odd original jacket but they have provenance and given to me by friends who wore them in WW2 - there is no way I would feel at all comfortable wearing them - period. These items may get re-loaned to suitable institutions in due course, if not they will be passed to my children who also have a deep regard for history and also have memories of the people who wore the stuff originally.

I'm not sure where I'm heading with this but recent years have seen the growth in suppliers of good repro gear that is perfectly capable of doing the job the originals were designed to do so I'm happy to make use of it ...and even abuse it at times. I would only wear a generic original these days for light duties or occasions only ....in similar fashion to the way I drive my 1943 Willys MB Jeep* - gently and with respect both on and off road. If things work out for me I will treat myself to a decent original, unknown provenance A-2 and Irvin for old times sake but don't intend to get on the collecting merry go round again. Been there, done that.

Please excuse typos etc, I'm tapping this out on my phone which believes it knows best

*Unlike many this one isn't a Triggers Broom model ...although it did have a new engine and gearbox while still in service in 1944.

 

[Southoftheborder]

Yes back then it was just surplus and lots of people wore them. I had an ex issue G1 at the end of the sixties/beginning of the seventies and it was just an attractive leather jacket as far as I was concerned. I knew it was ex US services but that wasn't why I wore it, and in fact I knew very little about it and wasn't much interested at the time. Though a friend of mine did wear an original Irvin back then, and I did envy him that.

But that was a long time ago - and to go back even further my father cut up an Irvin when I was a small boy to make slippers from it. I thought at the time and said to him that it was a pity. But he just told me that the arms had gone anyway and it was no use for anything.

In the early fifties, only a few years after the war you could do that. But would you do it today?

 

[Nickb123]

Can you imagine what the collectors market for our beloved repros will look like several generations down the road?

it’s kind of comical to think of. “Oh, that jacket you found in your grandfather’s attic, though it’s missing a label, is identifiable as a Goodwear. And it’s highly rare-judging by the pockets it’s potentially a super rare Acme...let me brush off the cobwebs off my Gary Eastman handbook, of which only four survive.”

 

[P-47 thunderbolt]

I agree that originals should only be worn sparingly - try on, air show or commemorative occasions if at all. They were once simple army surplus, just one type of clothing available after the war in a sea of other surplus and scrap. A piece of hard wearing work wear to ride a motorbike in and protect your best clothes underneath. It's because they were treated as such that they are scarce today. As time has passed and the historical significance has grown, original a2s should be regarded as artifacts (like all ww2 militaria). I have a couple of m442a jackets but I don't want to damage them by wearing them. I want to wear an A2 as a piece of resilient and cool clothing, I want to be able to chuck it on and let it get worn and creased and become my individual jacket and feel happy that I'm not degrading a piece of history. So... only a repro will do. And here lies the ironic thing with VLJ forum, we covet original A2s so much that we wear reproduction jackets that are not actually vintage (albeit vintage styled).
Originals for collecting/admiring/informing
Repros for wearing

 

[B-Man2]

Agree with you P-47.