Original Jackets vs. Repros; what are your thoughts?

[MaydayWei]

You could always repair that. All the parts to build a new rolling chassis and body are available. If you replace enough it would end up as a Trigger's broom repro kit car though.

I think the fundamental disagreement here is whether the priority should be on preservation or experiencing something as it was meant to be.
If you wish to preserve the 'originality' of say a 1960s Rolex Submariner or a 60s Maserati 350 GT, then you'd best keep it in a safe or never drive it at all.
If you prioritise experiencing as it was intended to, then you'd 'rally it' or wear it or what not.
Question is, which holds more value to you?
Do you gain more value from knowing that you have something in its pure and immaculate original form in you ownership? Or do you instead place greater value on experiencing, using, and attaching it to memories in your life?

 

[Brettafett]

The world needs both and everywhere in-between.
Guys who are passionate about the history, collecting and retaining the originality of these jackets. Preservationists...
But also the guys who dont want a decades old jacket that someone else went to war in, but want to break in and wear their own jackets and have their own adventures in... Be it top end or more budget...
Wearing these jackets becomes like a testament then... no matter who the maker is
Its really another form of preservation in a way. John Chapman and Gary Eastman taught themselves the ins and outs of originals and replicated them, Aero also... So its not just the history or the aircrews...
Again, so much about this is what makes this hobby so special.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Hardly Tigger's Broom but the Cobra had a few mods before I got it (reputedly raced at Riverside in it's youth)
Sidewinders most obviously
Long since sold, last I heard was racing at the Nurburgring, amazing car, a huge privlidge to have owned but too fragile for rallying and I never fancied racing, hill climbs I found boring
Bought a Mini Cooper S and went into the Forests

PS Anyone (from overseas) need a link to the "Trigger's Broom" clip on youtube

 

[MaydayWei]

The world needs both and everywhere in-between.

Well put, Brett!

 

[Kermit3D]

Not sure about that either, I used to rally this,

View attachment 54849

The Cobra is superb. It must be incredible to drive... personally this car would scare me !
But you can drive it hard, it's a repro (like 99% of Cobras, and it's still a fantastic car).

 

[Southoftheborder]

I think the fundamental disagreement here is whether the priority should be on preservation or experiencing something as it was meant to be.
If you wish to preserve the 'originality' of say a 1960s Rolex Submariner or a 60s Maserati 350 GT, then you'd best keep it in a safe or never drive it at all.
If you prioritise experiencing as it was intended to, then you'd 'rally it' or wear it or what not.
Question is, which holds more value to you?
Do you gain more value from knowing that you have something in its pure and immaculate original form in you ownership? Or do you instead place greater value on experiencing, using, and attaching it to memories in your life?

No what I'm saying is use it but don't abuse it. If you are saying just use it roughly as it was used new and don't treat it with any care then we do disagree. At no point did I say just keep something to look at and don't use it so I don't know where you got that from. I wear my watches but I don't wear them to work on the car. Of course anyone who buys something is at liberty to use it as they like and destroy it if they like.

But it is a shame to buy something which has survived untouched for almost a century and use it carelessly like something you can just replace or buy anywhere.

 

[bazzer]

I think the old saying sums it up
That two reasonable people can reasonably come to two different judgments from the same evidence
Baz

 

[mulceber]

I think the old saying sums it up
That two reasonable people can reasonably come to two different judgments from the same evidence
Baz

Absolutely. I think the pros and cons listed above are best regarded not as arguments, but as thoughtful considerations to help jacket collectors decide what’s right for them.

 

[B-Man2]

If I may offer an opinion in the above discussion , I think sometimes a persons thoughts with regard to how they view original flight jackets and their use, differs with whether you own them or not. Now I’m not saying this because I do , or because I’m trying to be a snob , but rather because my thoughts on whether I was going to wear them changed once I bought my first original A2. Before I owned one I was definitely the guy who thought that I would only wear an original jacket as a daily wearer . Why wear a repro when I can wear the real thing . However , once I had one, that attitude completely changed . I started to realize that the jacket was 80 years old and that the threads were dried and probably wouldn’t hold up to daily wear. I also realized that daily use would add wear and tear to the jacket and at some point repairs would be required, if I continued to use it everyday . But the one thing that really changed my mind about using an original as a daily wearer was, that I realized that there were only a very limited number of original A2 jackets in existence and there were NEVER going to be anymore, EVER ! Now add in the fact that I wear a size 46 and that makes the jacket even more limited in number, due to the fact that not many size 46 jackets were made , and now maybe your opinion about this changes the discussion . So , that’s why I wear repros and only on limited occasions will I pull out an original to wear . Before I close let me just say that there is one last factor that I think about, and that is, that every time I handle an original A2 , I think about “the guy” who was actually issued that jacket , and who actually wore it in combat , and who actually cared enough about that jacket to make damn sure that if he survived the war, that the jacket got back to the states. That’s how significant that jacket was and how much it meant to him. Now would I want to risk making that jacket my daily wearer and adding to its potential demise, simply because I think it looks cool to wear an original A2. ?
That’s all I’m saying

 

[Brettafett]

100%

 

[Brettafett]

When I first joined the forum years back there were a lot more guys posting about originals (as has recently been alluded too). It was great to see the depth of interest and knowledge being was shared.

An original A-2 in wearable condition became the Holy grail. Seeing originals in museums, at Airshows (Gary brought and wore a couple to Duxford in the past) and then actually handling some and eventually trying them on... and then one day owning one. Was all part of the journey for me.
I certainly respect those who choose to purchase and care for these babies... Its important that someone does. Our interest (be it as wearers, collectors or as collector-wearers...) in some way honours these guys. Just reading some of these posts, where someone has purchased an original and then gone and found out about the original owner, contacted their families etc... Its incredible. Really.

Just for me... I never felt comfortable wearing the one original A-2 I owned out & about. Id inspect it and try it on occasionally, and as Burt said, think about where it has been and about who has worn it... But also about aspects of its fragility...
But also like Nick said, Id not feel quite right wearing it... Like I didn't earn it... Weird maybe... So, it sat in a closet. I'm not a collector per se, nor am I able to display, nor do I feel inclined to take care of it...
I am very glad I got to own one, but happy to leave them to the guys who have this keen interest. And continue to look forward to pics and stories about them...

 

[B-Man2]

When I first joined the forum years back there were a lot more guys posting about originals (as has recently been alluded too). It was great to see the depth of interest and knowledge being was shared.

An original A-2 in wearable condition became the Holy grail. Seeing originals in museums, at Airshows (Gary brought and wore a couple to Duxford in the past) and then actually handling some and eventually trying them on... and then one day owning one. Was all part of the journey for me.
I certainly respect those who choose to purchase and care for these babies... Its important that someone does. Our interest (be it as wearers, collectors or as collector-wearers...) in some way honours these guys. Just reading some of these posts, where someone has purchased an original and then gone and found out about the original owner, contacted their families etc... Its incredible. Really.

Just for me... I never felt comfortable wearing the one original A-2 I owned out & about. Id inspect it and try it on occasionally, and as Burt said, think about where it has been and about who has worn it... But also about aspects of its fragility...
But also like Nick said, Id not feel quite right wearing it... Like I didn't earn it... Weird maybe... So, it sat in a closet. I'm not a collector per se, nor am I able to display, nor do I feel inclined to take care of it...
I am very glad I got to own one, but happy to leave them to the guys who have this keen interest. And continue to look forward to pics and stories about them...

Nicely stated Bretta
This backs up what I was trying to say . Both of our opinions changed once we actually owned an original A2 . It’s actually a little strange because I never gave that side of it a thought, until I owned one . Before that I simply thought about how cool it would be to have an original and wear it when I went out some place .

 

[MaydayWei]

Absolutely. I think the pros and cons listed above are best regarded not as arguments, but as thoughtful considerations to help jacket collectors decide what’s right for them.

Definitely, I don't think we're having an argument. But rather a spirited discussion on such a niche topic; which, really, can't be found anywhere else on the internet.

 

[MaydayWei]

It appears that a lot of the discussion on 'originals' implicitly assumes that 'original' refers to an issued, battle-worn, World War II A2 jacket.
I think suggestions going to the 'have not earned it'; or 'a man's combat uniform is not fashion' falls flat for other original but unissued, NOS, 0-history jackets; such as maybe a later 70s NOS G-1; or an unissued, NOS, in-the-plastic, MA-1, for example.
I wonder if your views on 'originals' would change, if you were to presume that 'original' referred to say a 7823E(AS) G-1, which (in contrast to an A2) are still and will continue to be produced for the foreseeable future.

 

[MaydayWei]

No what I'm saying is use it but don't abuse it. If you are saying just use it roughly as it was used new and don't treat it with any care then we do disagree. At no point did I say just keep something to look at and don't use it so I don't know where you got that from. I wear my watches but I don't wear them to work on the car. Of course anyone who buys something is at liberty to use it as they like and destroy it if they like.

But it is a shame to buy something which has survived untouched for almost a century and use it carelessly like something you can just replace or buy anywhere.

Whoops, sorry. I did not mean don't use it entirely. I meant that if you are very pressed about its pristine condition, it would be better to not expose it to any risk at all.
I think we are all speaking under the unstated assumption that we would never abuse an original. I think, perhaps, we would not even abuse a reproduction.
But I think you are right, that in some circumstances which pose a high risk to your jacket i.e. a NYE party with drinks spilling everywhere; maybe don't wear an original but a repro.

 

[B-Man2]

Wei
That’s an excellent point . I think that’s a factor in how I feel about an original A2 vs the other jackets . Surely other originals have similar backgrounds in that they were issued and worn in military uniform and some during the Korean and Vietnam War , but for some reason an A2 stands alone in comparison to the other military jackets . It doesn’t seem logical as they are all historical pieces but that’s the way I view it ......... Doesn’t make sense does it .... as Spock would say “ It’s logically deficient Jim”

 

[Brettafett]

ha, I was going to add about G-1s, but didn't.

Again this is just my take, but for me G-1s are a different bean. maybe its because they are more readily available, generally in a lot better condition (relative), maybe its because they are made of goatskin!... maybe its because they span various, more recent engagements... or not... (the 'market' tends to agree in a fashion... original G-1s cost a lot less and are more readily available than an original A-2).
But besides the book I wrote about the costs and hassle Ive experienced in attempting to clean & refurbish and original G-1, I have no problem wearing an original G-1.
If I found another like my Star, but with a touch more length, or that Brill Bros that fit perfectly, but in mint condition - I'd have it!

 

[B-Man2]

ha, I was going to add about G-1s, but didn't.

Again this is just my take, but for me G-1s are a different bean. maybe its because they are more readily available, generally in a lot better condition (relative), maybe its because they are made of goatskin!... maybe its because they span various, more recent engagements... or not... (the 'market' tends to agree in a fashion... original G-1s cost a lot less and are more readily available than an original A-2).
But besides the book I wrote about the costs and hassle Ive experienced in attempting to clean & refurbish and original G-1, I have no problem wearing an original G-1.
If I found another like my Star, but with a touch more length, or that Brill Bros that fit perfectly, but in mint condition - I'd have it!

Once again I’m in complete agreement with you . Wearing an original G-1 doesn’t present any of the concerns I have when I’m wearing an original A2 . I know it doesn’t make any sense, but there ya go!

 

[Flightengineer]

Once again I’m in complete agreement with you . Wearing an original G-1 doesn’t present any of the concerns I have when I’m wearing an original A2 . I know it doesn’t make any sense, but there ya go!

I think it's all about the aura of the Second World War. Anyone who is interested in this theme (and on this small forum most of us are likely) associated original A2 with young pilots and crew members exposed to great risk, passed the meatgrinder of a terrible war in the air, and most of them, even those who returned safe and sound, bore the stamp of terrible combat missions. Everyone remembers documentaries and photos of planes burning and falling, planes returning to base with holes in the fuselage and on one wing and with corpses in the seats. All this is also strongly associated with A2 jackets too - and not just funny guys posing near their planes and showing painted pin-up girls on their jackets. That is why such an attitude is towards the original A2, even those of whom nothing is known about the first owners - this guys potentially "could be there" or nearby.
The second factor - even for members here who are much older than me ( I have lived for half a century) - WW2 is something that none of us have seen ourselves. So this is really HISTORY. Conventionally, there is a generation here of those who were in Vietnam (or could have been), they are alive, and the G1s dated this war is not such a distant history as WW2. Apparently this is the whole point. This is a certain psychological moment.
This is a point regardless of the fact that the conditionally original survivors A2s are less than the original G1s.

Perhaps this is one of the most interesting threads in recent time, affecting a lot of psychological things that go alongside this hobby.

 

[Brettafett]

I was wondering about one of Jorge's mint A-2s... I think its a Perry or 1756... But based on all the thoughts above, I wonder...

If you came across a mint, literally in the box original WWII A-2, that fit.... would you keep it in the box/ stored in a climate controlled environment etc.. Retaining its originality/ quality... And value!
Or, would you wear it like you would any high end A-2?

I mean, its an original mid/late 1940s item, mint, rare and unworn... But never taken into the air or combat, so maybe doesn't have that personal lustre, but it does have that historical mystique.