None-French made Hartmann jacket ?

[Loulounug]

Hello Forum

I was proposed this "Hartmann" style (or cyclist) jacket from a USA collector

I didn't passed out for the moment because, it may have a chance to be from the 40'ies.
Here is my little thinking about (and looking at Pilot clues when asking what a real Hartmann jacket was) :
What I like :
- Leather itself, dark brown as the few jackets whe can see
- All zippers matchs to the jacket, no modifications of it
- Collar is correct
- Size 36 (100cm chest)
- Pocket flaps are from a common pattern
- And well...For the shoulder board loop and buttons, it has a unique way presented (not the sewed leather and button) with a screwback button and one cloth loop
You will find the exact system on the germans overcoats from the 1935-1945 period.


What i'm septical :
- Original 40's RiRi zips ?
- No pocket buttons (what i'm thinking would be a foreign made jacket)
- Luftwaffe Turkey sewed in

Overcoat example :

Jacket itself :

Any comment apreciated
Louis.

 

[Saint-ex]

@Pilot is the man to help !

 

[Pilot]

@Pilot is the man to help !

Sure I can help…
The only legit item is the officer breast eagle.
( how battered it is compared to the jackets condition )
The shoulder boards are at best GDR Artillery, at worse repro Ari …the zips are clearly SWISS RiRi from the 1980s
The jacket itself is an older US WINGS or other repro maker … repro jacket.
The front buckle is a big joke..
The so called collector is either an ignorant or a cheater…
Sorry.

 

[Loulounug]

Well at least it has been flagged and statued

I was too focused on those shoulder boards
Many thanks Pilot

 

[Pilot]

Well at least it has been flagged and statued

I was too focused on those shoulder boards
Many thanks Pilot

Thankyou/welcome, just buy some docs on the WWII German military insignas and rank pipings… and Luftwaffe gear in general ( plus pilot and flight crew equipment ) surely it will save you a lot of $$$ and headaches.

 

[Loulounug]

Thankyou/welcome, just buy some docs on the WWII German military insignas and rank pipings… and Luftwaffe gear in general ( plus pilot and flight crew equipment ) surely it will save you a lot of $$$ and headaches.

No worries, I didn't buy anything before a clear advice of a forum or a well know collector.

I have documentation about the Heer/Luft/SS gear (as I have invested in a few goods items, but good ones) but well the "civil" side of the 40ies is clearly not learned from my side

Even if it's not the subject of the forum (and topic) here is a little sneacky peak of the collection (in spoiler, you need to click on it)

Spoiler

Welp at least, Pilot, I'll work to get a Hartmann from you'r
Thanks again

 

[Kermit3D]

It's funny how many (most) reproductions are based on the Hartmann ELC jacket rather than the original cyclist jackets. Riri zippers (or Riri imitations) are popping up everywhere... and it's clearly an ELC invention.

 

[B-Man2]

It's funny how many (most) reproductions are based on the Hartmann ELC jacket rather than the original cyclist jackets. Riri zippers (or Riri imitations) are popping up everywhere... and it's clearly an ELC invention.

It’s basically an interpretation based on photos of the jacket Hartmann wore.
I don’t think that ELC actually had an original French cyclist jacket to develop their pattern from …. But … I could be wrong .. please anyone , feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Smithy]

Brice (Pilot) is the Jedi Master of LW used flying jackets and as he wisely points out this is dodgier than someone wanting to marry their sister.

I'm not an expert by any stretch but straight off the bat, the pattern dimensions are completely wrong - look at the length of the body compared to the arms, and the general shape of the pattern. It's a potato sack compared to an actual one.

 

[B-Man2]

Spot on Tim
Much too long in the body.
I never really knew what to look for when trying to determine the authenticity of these jackets until Brice took the time to post some discussion points that educated us on them.

 

[Kermit3D]

It’s basically an interpretation based on photos of the jacket Hartmann wore.
I don’t think that ELC actually had an original French cyclist jacket to develop their pattern from …. But … I could be wrong .. please anyone , feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

The ELC Hartmann jacket has been around for a long time and they were the first to reproduce this type of jacket.
I also think they intentionally adapted the shape of the jacket to make it wearable by today's people in today's clothes.
A cyclist jacket with a historically correct shape is only suitable for relatively slim people, and has to be paired with high-waisted pants... it's far too restrictive for most people, and I totally understand that.

That said, the Hartmann jacket from ELC is a superb jacket. Not very faithful, but a great jacket nonetheless.

 

[Smithy]

No worries, I didn't buy anything before a clear advice of a forum or a well know collector.

I have documentation about the Heer/Luft/SS gear (as I have invested in a few goods items, but good ones) but well the "civil" side of the 40ies is clearly not learned from my side

Even if it's not the subject of the forum (and topic) here is a little sneacky peak of the collection (in spoiler, you need to click on it)

Spoiler

View attachment 172261

Welp at least, Pilot, I'll work to get a Hartmann from you'r
Thanks again

BTW Pilot is exceedingly learned with Waffen-SS items as well, so if you need help with them, he's the man to ask.

I have a large interest in Waffen-SS and Wehrmacht camouflage items but Brice is the fellow to get in contact with if you want the last word on whether something is genuine and the details about it .

And LW flying jacket repros from Brice are the equivalent of USAAF A-2s from John Chapman.

Save your pennies and get one!

 

[Kermit3D]

The civilian jackets worn by Luftwaffe pilots are such a complex subject...
They're not just cyclist jackets, there were many other types (Hans-Joachim Marseille, Werner Mölders, ...).

Sometimes when I look at vintage photos and see some of the jackets worn by the pilots, I think to myself: “if I'd seen that jacket on ebay, I'd certainly have thought it was a fake”.

 

[B-Man2]

I agree that the original cyclist jacket was
a very short jacket made for high waisted pants. From a fashion standpoint that was pretty much what men wore in the 40s. I’m not an authority on the jacket or the time period that it was worn, but while it was a French made fashion statement, the German pilots saw the value in having a very short waisted jacket while sitting in the cockpit of their aircraft. Since all of these jackets were private purchase items from several different vendors in France, it’s easy to understand why they all are made a little differently .

 

[Loulounug]

Hello Folks
Thanks for the reply and the argumentation

Save your pennies and get one!

Will do !

I'm usually looking on some "speacialised" (Wehrmarcht award forums, Passion Militaria, USMF and now, well, VintageLeatherJackets) when thinking about buying something
My pennies go only when my mind have a certitude of the item (especially camo or SS tunics) from the others that got the knowledge of the years and experiences (and I was pretty lucky)

For this one it was just a look "if it was" with my low knowledge of the Cyclist jackets.
This one was proposed for 1900€ for information

And for this one I'v learned more than before

Louis.