New M-422 is finally here

[Jeff M]

I too am hoping that BK makes a quality product at an "affordable" price.
As others have noted, there just aren't many around to look at, first hand testimonials, etc.
I've been seriously considering ordering one of their new A2's.
The price on the new A2's is 540 Eur. This is $714. Add in customs and shipping....probably around $850.
I just purchased a used GW for less than that.

At 350 Eur (the price currently listed for A2's listed at the yet to be upgraded BK web site...$460...add in lets say another $150 shipping and customs= $610 ), I'd have been much more likely to place an order with BK.
For $850.....too many other options out there for me.

As an aside....
I don't know how much of this has to do with Greece's ties to the EU, but it seems that if producers in a country are tied to a larger economy that, as a whole, is doing much better than they are as a country, this would limit their ability to offer goods and services at what are "bargain prices" to others. I understand this is a problem with the Greece tourist industry...where tourism prices remain relatively high because of Greece's tie to the EU....hindering the tourist trade.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Just received a PM from Platon and they now have my m39 triple stamped Talon from MASH so hopefully it won't be long now....I will keep everyone posted of the progress and will give a full review once the jacket is in my hands. So far, so good...

 

[Anonymous]

A lot has been said that deserves a lengthy reply but I will say only a few things.
First of all, BK is my creation. Andy and his team were running a shop making fashion leathers and the only idea they had about flying jackets were the mall type jackets they were making and selling in the 80s. Business was bad and the shop was about to close due to three factors a) the crisis b) the ever growing summer in Greece (no one wears leather) c) the fact that these days you can buy leather at shops like Zara for eur 50.
As you may know the original plan was to sell a hybrid A-2 with wwii fit as cheap as possible for the people who couldn't afford to buy the high end repros. Money and time was spent but demand was near to zero so something had to be done. So more money was spent and switched to a cheap version of the Rough Wear without the correct hardware. Demand increased but was still not enough to cover the expense time and effort invested. I came to the conclusion that people didn't care much for 'cheapo' jackets. All jacket makers had waiting lists of 6 months or more and BK was struggling to sell 2-3 jackets per month. It was time time to either improve the product or die. I chose to improve. Improve the quality, details, everything. That meant also introduce more styles, buy more originals to copy etc which translated into more expenses. I will give you only one example, from one color knits, we are now at 4 different colors for the A-2 and 3 colors for the M-422, i.e. total 7. Cost inevitably increased. I don't need to mention that last time we bought lining from USA cost was $100 and paid $230 in customs!!! Same goes for the thread we buy from USA and the knits, e.g. thread costs us $12 per tube while in USA they buy it at $5.95
We bear these costs ourselves and the price remains cheapest. Others who don't have these costs charge twice what we charge (I don't blame them). We make heroic efforts to keep the price down, we pay double for everything and our price is still half than others.

I shouldn't be arguing about this. It is a fact BK is still the cheapest in the market. BK prices are below Aero, while quality is same and accuracy is better. I recently bought a Buzz Rickson RW to compare with the new BK RW. Guess what, the BK was far better and I have photos to prove it.

Regarding customs, BK never had any customers that paid customs. The jackets are shipped in discreet packaging are marked 'gift' and have low value declared. Regarding the shipping cost to Australia, for the new jackets BK offers 2 ways of shipping, standard and express (EMS courier). The quote for Australia was with EMS. We don't set the prices, sorry.

(this ended to be longer than intended, anyway)

 

[ButteMT61]

All that is understood. BUT...you keep saying you have better pictures - pictures to prove how good these are - but we don't see them. The website is "going to be updated soon". Instead of buying another A-2, get a good camera and some models or a mannequin and shoot some good pics. Advertise your price - don't make people email and/or PM for it. Nobody else does that.
You can't blame folks for hesitating with this business model. I too thought the jackets were going to be ~$600. So the price is higher than I thought - not higher than it might cost you - there's a difference. I don't think anyone is implying that you're charging too much necessarily, but it sounds like a lot of us thought it would be less.
So, my advice from someone who is a customer and have never owned or run a business - spend the time/money on pictures and show folks what they look like on a body - be it real or plaster.

Good luck!

 

[omarco]

i think the price is okay as long as the quality is there but also have to reiterate that at the moment no one is really sure what they are buying.. high quality product photos will sell you more jackets than anything else... its impossible to buy without them. Proper sizing information is also essential, measurements for each available size need to be easily found. If you have this information freely available you will save alot of time answering the same old emails over and over again.. i'v often thought this about Eastman too.

I'm sure you know all this already and it's early days for your new product range so i think you deserve a little slack... but... you're not gonna sell in any volume till you get that website sorted With respect.

 

[Anonymous]

"We got USAAF jackets, USN jackets, seal jackets, russet jackets, regular jackets, long jackets, jackets with collar stands, jackets without, jackets with Talon repro, jackets with NOS Talon..... come on in jacket lovers
If you can find cheaper jacket anywhere, BUY IT!!!!!"

(Warning PG16 content)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featu ... cKORA_5XdE


Speaking of prices, regrettably the dollar/euro exchange does not allow to make the jackets cheaper for our US friends.
And re the made in USA, our jackets are made from USA materials except the leathers (Italy) and the hardware (japan).

 

[omarco]

 

[Jeff M]

It will be nice when some of the new BK's get in the hands of some forum members. Once that happens, we will have have a better picture of the quality of the product...and be better able to judge their price point.
Things are still up in the air at this point.
Personally, I'd love to another top quality A2 in this price range.
It really boils down to quality and availability.

 

[dmar836]

My advice, as unsolicited as it is valuable, would be to sell only bespoke jackets at this time.
I have erased about three responses similar to Andrews so now that he spoke up, I can too.
The situation we encountered a year or two ago was as mentioned above - "Waiting for better zips, correct snaps, and some pattern corrections on the RW." We, who inquired early on never really heard the final answers meanwhile you continued to search for new patterns and models to make. Sounds like many were interested but were put off - I was. It would appear by actions that you have only gotten past the prototype phase. There is nothing wrong with that but it also appears there is absolutely no base model from which to start - each is different(ie "bespoke"). The problem is that the website offers a jacket and price that simply wasn't available or at least wasn't what you were showing here(the RW and the M-422). If you don't have the hides or correct zips or need NOS zips sent to you, you could just say that - no harm, no foul. Let us know that the pattern is corrected and what is needed to get the jacket we expect and no one would mind. You have already ventured past the having to ask stage. As it is, saying things like, "the first models should be ready to ship in two weeks.", etc. just isn't working as apparently decent zips still aren't available unless sent to you with the order. Now the A-2 (RW or otherwise) is 200 euros over what they were without having dozens out there for review. I can only assume that the RW still has the incorrect snaps and no standardized zip as you are getting an NOS zip sent by a customer for the (first?) M-422.
Just try to see it from our side(those of us pulling for you).
I find it has all gotten way too speculative when dropping this kind of cash - even if it is cheaper than the competition. I do hope it works out but think at this point, to save your audience, selling one-off with sourced NOS zips, etc. is a safer route to take and will help us see jackets as ordered.

JMO,
Dave

 

[airfrogusmc]

My advice, as unsolicited as it is valuable, would be to sell only bespoke jackets at this time.
I have erased about three responses similar to Andrews so now that he spoke up, I can too.
The situation we encountered a year or two ago was as mentioned above - "Waiting for better zips, correct snaps, and some pattern corrections on the RW." We, who inquired early on never really heard the final answers meanwhile you continued to search for new patterns and models to make. Sounds like many were interested but were put off - I was. It would appear by actions that you have only gotten past the prototype phase. There is nothing wrong with that but it also appears there is absolutely no base model from which to start - each is different(ie "bespoke"). The problem is that the website offers a jacket and price that simply wasn't available or at least wasn't what you were showing here(the RW and the M-422). If you don't have the hides or correct zips or need NOS zips sent to you, you could just say that - no harm, no foul. Let us know that the pattern is corrected and what is needed to get the jacket we expect and no one would mind. You have already ventured past the having to ask stage. As it is, saying things like, "the first models should be ready to ship in two weeks.", etc. just isn't working as apparently decent zips still aren't available unless sent to you with the order. Now the A-2 (RW or otherwise) is 200 euros over what they were without having dozens out there for review. I can only assume that the RW still has the incorrect snaps and no standardized zip as you are getting an NOS zip sent by a customer for the (first?) M-422.
Just try to see it from our side(those of us pulling for you).
I find it has all gotten way too speculative when dropping this kind of cash - even if it is cheaper than the competition. I do hope it works out but think at this point, to save your audience, selling one-off with sourced NOS zips, etc. is a safer route to take and will help us see jackets as ordered.

JMO,
Dave

Dave,

Just for point of reference my jacket is going to be larger than usual so they didn't have an NOS Talon long enough. The longest NOS Talon they have is 24 inches mine will need to be 26 +..They credited me for their zipper and I scored one long enough from MASH and had it sent directly to them. I also sent measurements....

Should be a great fit and I can't wait to see the final product.

 

[dmar836]

Can't wait to hear how it turns out. I guess this proves that we aren't all aware of where the hardware is at this stage...... or that I can't pay attention. The latter is likely.
I re-read that post and it sure sounds more harsh than intended(a gift of mine). The "bespoke" idea is an honest suggestion that I think would better fit the marketing methods already established.
Thanks for clarifying that.
So without busting the thread, the RW is now pattern-corrected, is possible with a good zip, and what about the snaps?
Keep it all coming!
Dave

 

[Andrew]

Nice to see i'm not alone and you're not alone Dave, mine sounds harsh too.

This isn't giving advice to Platon as he knows his own biz. For the record i'm sure many didn't know or have forgotten that when John was starting up in '06 (or was it 07?) he sold his first round of jackets which were known as "Pre-production" jackets to anyone who wanted to buy one and from memory the price was around the $450-$500 mark. I still have one (now painted by a Vet and adorned internally with about twenty fighter pilot sigs) and it's great. Over the last 6 years JC's progressively improved everything- it's the main thing he tells you whenever you speak with him, so that means despite the fact the early jackets are great they aren't as good or as valuable as the latest ones.

Importantly though, doing this firmly concreted a loyal Client base who were singing the praises on all the forums and you didn't have to shell out a ton to take a chance, plus you were almost certain to come back for more at a higher price.

I'd love to try a BK someday, but for now that's enough from me especially as i'm certainly no businesshead.

 

[Anonymous]

OK, I don't say nothing. The site will answer soon.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Any ETA on my jacket?

 

[airfrogusmc]

Just got an e-mail from Platon and if all goes right it could ship next week....

 

[Anonymous]

the updates are more regular than reuters'

 

[airfrogusmc]

the updates are more regular than reuters'

AAAHHHHHH.....The age of the internet and immediate communication.

 

[Rutger]

Provided the fit turns out (I am aware and believe fit can not be 100% guaranteed by any on line maker/seller since drape not only requires the obvious and basic measurements of pit-pit, shoulders, shoulder-cuff, neck-waist, frontlength, waist, but also depends on the detailed cut of all panels (read contracts)), judging by the pictures I have seen I am fully confident I am going to get a great A2.

 

[m444uk]

A lot has been said that deserves a lengthy reply but I will say only a few things.
First of all, BK is my creation. Andy and his team were running a shop making fashion leathers and the only idea they had about flying jackets were the mall type jackets they were making and selling in the 80s. Business was bad and the shop was about to close due to three factors a) the crisis b) the ever growing summer in Greece (no one wears leather) c) the fact that these days you can buy leather at shops like Zara for eur 50.
As you may know the original plan was to sell a hybrid A-2 with wwii fit as cheap as possible for the people who couldn't afford to buy the high end repros. Money and time was spent but demand was near to zero so something had to be done. So more money was spent and switched to a cheap version of the Rough Wear without the correct hardware. Demand increased but was still not enough to cover the expense time and effort invested. I came to the conclusion that people didn't care much for 'cheapo' jackets. All jacket makers had waiting lists of 6 months or more and BK was struggling to sell 2-3 jackets per month. It was time time to either improve the product or die. I chose to improve. Improve the quality, details, everything. That meant also introduce more styles, buy more originals to copy etc which translated into more expenses. I will give you only one example, from one color knits, we are now at 4 different colors for the A-2 and 3 colors for the M-422, i.e. total 7. Cost inevitably increased. I don't need to mention that last time we bought lining from USA cost was $100 and paid $230 in customs!!! Same goes for the thread we buy from USA and the knits, e.g. thread costs us $12 per tube while in USA they buy it at $5.95
We bear these costs ourselves and the price remains cheapest. Others who don't have these costs charge twice what we charge (I don't blame them). We make heroic efforts to keep the price down, we pay double for everything and our price is still half than others.

I shouldn't be arguing about this. It is a fact BK is still the cheapest in the market. BK prices are below Aero, while quality is same and accuracy is better. I recently bought a Buzz Rickson RW to compare with the new BK RW. Guess what, the BK was far better and I have photos to prove it.

Regarding customs, BK never had any customers that paid customs. The jackets are shipped in discreet packaging are marked 'gift' and have low value declared. Regarding the shipping cost to Australia, for the new jackets BK offers 2 ways of shipping, standard and express (EMS courier). The quote for Australia was with EMS. We don't set the prices, sorry.

(this ended to be longer than intended, anyway)

I don't think Goodwear sell many USN jackets at $1400 except to guys over size 48 who can't find originals. Years ago Alan Eastman told me their A2 outsold the USN jackets ten to one. That was in the days when they had only just introduced the Roughwear label. It's probably 20-1 these days.

Prices from the year 2000 Eastman catalogue

G-1 £292. This is £397 in today's money using the UK inflation calculator.
M422a £329= £448
B3 Roughwear £475 = £646

Conclusion: Kelso asking 585 euros / £ 488 is not unreasonable for a G&F

 

[dmar836]

That's true but if you don't yet have the name of GW or ELC you have to start somewhere to get into this finicky market. At this stage, one or two guys on VLJ who say something wrong about a BK they have ordered could undermine the whole thing. We don't want to see that. We are trying to help so were just suggesting one - offs until the brand is more out there or at least selling at a significant discount to entice a fan base. Who can suggest leading with a profit loss but sometimes you have to do that to break into an established market or agree you just aren't willing to compete for less - a real option that is certainly understood by many. I closed a photography business like that while it was still doing well as I foresaw a slew of digital guys coming in with cheap intro plans.
I think, like johnnyboy, offering jackets one at a time as they are made is a great way to go. I perceive the killer BK website launching early and remaining basically unchanged threw most of us for a loop.

JMO,
Dave