Need Help to Identify "A2 Werber Leather Coat Co. Contract 1729"

[Shawn Ali]

Dear Respected Members and Friends

As I almost completed the Production of that A2, but really not sure about the Label to use in that jacket, So can you propose some labeling suggestions for this A2.

Because overall we have mixed opinions.

Best Regards

Shawn

 

[mulceber]

I’ll just chip in that we should probably stick to known contracts, because those are the ones where we actually know for sure exactly what the labels looked like.

 

[2BM2K]

Dear Respected Members and Friends

As I almost completed the Production of that A2, but really not sure about the Label to use in that jacket, So can you propose some labeling suggestions for this A2.

Because overall we have mixed opinions.

Best Regards

Shawn

I would say make it as a 1729 contract.

Most of the jacket is like a 1729 just need to make a few corrections to the anomalies.

No lining to the pocket.
A correct snap on the pocket.
More rounded corners on the pocket.
Triangular stitched pocket reinforcement.

And need to find out what the leather reinforcement for the pocket snap looks like.

 

[bseal]

Please consider labeling it, “Eastmam.”

Oh, and if you are looking for a catchy military name, perhaps, “UAP.”

Watershed U.S. UFO report does not rule out extraterrestrial origin

A U.S. government report on UFOs issued on Friday said defense and intelligence analysts lack sufficient data to determine the nature of mysterious flying objects observed by American military pilots including whether they are advanced earthly technologies, atmospherics or of an extraterrestrial...

www.reuters.com

Aliens in Pakistan? Spooky Memes Take Over as PIA Pilot Captures 'UFO' During Lahore Flight - News18

The 'shiny UFO' was snapped by the Pakistani pilot near Rahim Yar Khan during a routine Lahore-bound flight from Karachi on January 23.

www.news18.com

 

[33-1729]

Dear Respected Members and Friends

As I almost completed the Production of that A2, but really not sure about the Label to use in that jacket, So can you propose some labeling suggestions for this A2.

Because overall we have mixed opinions.

Best Regards

Shawn

I think mulceber is right. Ignoring speculation and relying upon known, documented, government A-2 contracts this jacket doesn’t align to any known A-2 government contracts. Calling it any contract and those in the know will start picking it apart, based upon what they’ve seen documented, and I think you’re looking for a well-defined contract for your client.

Security Aviation Togs made a civilian version for their A-2, with a different lining and lined pockets according to an old advertisement (below), so we know such jackets existed. (Note the ad shows only the SAT label in the jacket and not a government contract label.)

Werber started operating solely on government contracts during the mid-1930’s according to a blog on this site, so dating the zipper may help support/deny that Werber was the manufacturer of this specific jacket. (It looks like a Talon, but we never saw the front to confirm.)

There were quite a number of aviation magazines in the 1930’s, so scouring them may show an ad for this specific jacket (like the SAT civilian version). Jay at Headwind speculates on what may have happened and labels some jackets with “X2”, “Spaulding”, etc. though there is no documentation to support this speculation. In no way does this distract from the jackets and maybe your client will want a fun label too.

Ref:. https://vintageleatherjackets.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-werber-leather-coat-company-beacon.html

 

[bseal]

Concur about the fun label.

“Lauder’s Laundered Designs,” has both historic and sentimental appeal. Also fond of “Storse & Lauder.”

 

[bseal]

If you need a fun design for your nomenclature tag, in addition to the proposed SAT, an amusing image for your still “unidentified aerial phenomenon” :

 

[33-1729]

Can someone please help me? Does the jacket Shawn posted in #1 have a collar stand?

 

[bseal]

Yes it does. Examine the top of the wind flap. Unless this is a trick question...

 

[33-1729]

Yes it does. Examine the top of the wind flap. Unless this is a trick question...

No, not at all. Thank you. I was looking on the inside of the jacket and the extra material wasn't obvious to me. Just wanted to be certain. Never hurts to double check and ask for another opinion.

 

[2BM2K]

Here is an interesting photo;

Two airmen are wearing SAT's the others Werbers.
The Werber on the left has snap pockets. But what of the other two Werbers? Are they button pockets or snapped pockets?

Shawn's Jacket is a good looking A2, it deserves to be copied in some form.

The reality is that jackets from about 1932 are rare. Waiting for a perfect original 1729 to come along and to copy will be a very long wait.

I think most repro jacket makers start by going along with what information they have and making changes when new information comes to light.

 

[33-1729]

It’s certainly a nice looking jacket.

As for the Werbers 2BM2K mentioned? I suspect a likely Weber 32-6225 candidate was one he highlighted a few years ago in another thread (the person in the center below). Photograph is from the right time, military airman owned, etc. Of course, we don’t have the jacket so it’s simply speculation.

The SAT 32-485 was a relatively large order at 1,666 jackets and survivors are quite rare, so the chances of finding a Werber 32-6225 out of 600 jackets made or a Werber 34-518P with an estimated 170 jackets made is pretty small.

Ref.: https://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/buttoned-pocket-flaps-a-2-jackets.20145/post-202405

 

[leper-colony]

2nd from left in top pic does not have bi-weave cuffs. And pocket corners are sharp.

 

[mulceber]

2nd from left in top pic does not have bi-weave cuffs. And pocket corners are sharp.

What about the jacket Burt posted in post #70? It’s knits look like regular A-2 knits to me, but I confess I have trouble spotting the difference sometimes.

 

[33-1729]

What about the jacket Burt posted in post #70? It’s knits look like regular A-2 knits to me, but I confess I have trouble spotting the difference sometimes.

The cuffs in post #70 look original to the jacket and like the other original Werber 33-1729 Eastman has in his book (Mr Eastman says it's a 1x1 plain-weave rib). Looks like the cuffs on my ELC 33-1729 too (as do the two guys on the left in the picture above).

 

[leper-colony]

Oh I thought ELC used a bi-weave. Dang eyeballs.

 

[2BM2K]

The SAT 32-485 was a relatively large order at 1,666 jackets and survivors are quite rare, so the chances of finding a Werber 32-6225 out of 600 jackets made or a Werber 34-518P with an estimated 170 jackets made is pretty small.

Indeed, this is a very rare jacket.

The zip has two little horns at the top, just like the zip on the SAT and1729 contracts. This puts the jacket in the same time period as these. A front photo of the zip would confirm this.

Not enough attention is being paid to the humble pocket snap.

This jacket appears to use the same snap for the collar and pocket. This is unusual as the pocket snap was commonly bigger than the collar snap and dimpled.

Original 1729 pocket snap.

This seems to indicate that Shawn's jacket predates the 1729 contract. If so, it does not leave many options for what the jacket could be.

Apart from the missing label it is difficult to identify this a Werber 32-6225 contract because no one has ever seen one.

How would it be possible to identify a 32-6225 jacket?

 

[33-1729]

Indeed, this is a very rare jacket.

The zip has two little horns at the top, just like the zip on the SAT and1729 contracts. This puts the jacket in the same time period as these. A front photo of the zip would confirm this.

Not enough attention is being paid to the humble pocket snap.

This jacket appears to use the same snap for the collar and pocket. This is unusual as the pocket snap was commonly bigger than the collar snap and dimpled.

Original 1729 pocket snap.

This seems to indicate that Shawn's jacket predates the 1729 contract. If so, it does not leave many options for what the jacket could be.

Apart from the missing label it is difficult to identify this a Werber 32-6225 contract because no one has ever seen one.

How would it be possible to identify a 32-6225 jacket?

I think we’re mixing together two different items.

Shaun’s jacket isn’t a government contract, if only based on the original and intact fabric lined pockets. Suppliers may be different, at the same company, for civilian vs commercial products (like the SAT civilian version in post #85 using fabric lined pockets and a different lining compared to the military version). Non-dimpled snaps were used for a couple decades and we haven’t seen the front of the zipper yet, so it's hard to define a date range with so little to go on. Dating it based on a government contract trait for a civilian version is like putting square pegs in round holes. I just wouldn’t read too much into it.

Based on the declassified government A-2 specification documents the Werber 32-6225 had buttoned pocket flaps. With that said, if we found an original jacket with an intact label we’d know for certain. Actually, unless we found an intact label we’ll never know for certain.

Put another way, we know a SAT civilian version had fabric lined pockets. Wouldn't we think SAT would make a snap pocket version? Is thet really enough to go on?

 

[2BM2K]

The SAT jacket ad makes a big deal of the jacket being in accordance with army regulations. Which I take to mean the same silk lining and pocket lining.

I see the 6225 contract as being evolutionary between the SAT and 1729.

Unfortunately the photographic evidence does not support the paper evidence. There are a lot of photo's of Werber jackets. I would have expected to find a lot of buttoned jackets amongst them, instead maybe two. It seems unlikely that they are all the 1729 contract.


Maybe the jacket owner could be pesuaded to loan it to John Chapman for a hands on expert opinion.

 

[33-1729]

In the SAT government order 32-485 case we have original survivors and they have unlined pockets with a cotton lining just as documented in the government A-2 specification paperwork.

I would expect jacket makers would like to upgrade their civilian versions with some nicer features, with the SAT above being one example.

Issues with photographic evidence are well documented. I don't believe the government documents we have were falsified.