Modern issue A-2: the new collector item?

[Former.USAF.C130]

Interesting perspective. I would suggest that the current-issue USAF A-2, might be seen as a recruitment tool, making aviation to seem especially glamorous. I have never held a current-issue USAF A-2 in my hands, but I had some experience with the nylon MA-1 jackets of the Vietnam era, and they were nothing to write home about in terms of quality, so I wouldn't expect much from the current issue USAF A-2. As to the CWU, I have the CWU-45. I appreciate that it is light weight, and I can vouch for the fact that the CWU-45 is quite adequate against the low winter temperatures and winds we get around the Chicago area, and yet light enough to wear indoors..

One more thought: what is the likelihood that a leather A-2 was actually worn in the operations of the Gulf War? I was under the impression that the temperature got pretty hot in the region of operations.

 

[ZuZu]

Interesting perspective. I would suggest that the current-issue USAF A-2, might be seen as a recruitment tool, making aviation to seem especially glamorous. I have never held a current-issue USAF A-2 in my hands, but I had some experience with the nylon MA-1 jackets of the Vietnam era, and they were nothing to write home about in terms of quality, so I wouldn't expect much from the current issue USAF A-2. As to the CWU, I have both the 36 and the 45. I appreciate that they are light weight, and I can vouch for the fact that the CWU-45 is quite adequate against the low winter temperatures and winds we get around the Chicago area.

I agree that it's a recruitment tool and I used to see the ROTC Air Force guys wearing them at UC Berkeley when I worked there- from a distance they looked pretty cool. My problem with them is that they had a chance to get the reissue right and instead went with the Avirex/Jeff Clyman Clown Show. It's sad because a square, well proportioned jacket with angular pocket flaps would have looked way better and was totally possible at the beginning. I know it's a silly thing but it bugs me.

 

[Pilot]

With all due respect.
The Stewies and other female personnel in Dubai.. so far disagree

 

[Pilot]

Stuff it!

 

[Pa12]

I agree that it's a recruitment tool and I used to see the ROTC Air Force guys wearing them at UC Berkeley when I worked there- from a distance they looked pretty cool. My problem with them is that they had a chance to get the reissue right and instead went with the Avirex/Jeff Clyman Clown Show. It's sad because a square, well proportioned jacket with angular pocket flaps would have looked way better and was totally possible at the beginning. I know it's a silly thing but it bugs me.

I agree that it's a recruitment tool and I used to see the ROTC Air Force guys wearing them at UC Berkeley when I worked there- from a distance they looked pretty cool. My problem with them is that they had a chance to get the reissue right and instead went with the Avirex/Jeff Clyman Clown Show. It's sad because a square, well proportioned jacket with angular pocket flaps would have looked way better and was totally possible at the beginning. I know it's a silly thing but it bugs me.

I’m with you. Don’t know why they felt they had to “modernize “it. Dropped the ball in my opinion.

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

I agree that it's a recruitment tool and I used to see the ROTC Air Force guys wearing them at UC Berkeley when I worked there- from a distance they looked pretty cool. My problem with them is that they had a chance to get the reissue right and instead went with the Avirex/Jeff Clyman Clown Show. It's sad because a square, well proportioned jacket with angular pocket flaps would have looked way better and was totally possible at the beginning. I know it's a silly thing but it bugs me.

Not making excuses for Mr. Clyman, but he says on the Cockpit website that the current issue A-2 was designed to incorporate changes wanted by USAF pilots. Beyond that, Cockpit is a government contractor, and we know what that means: mediocre product at the lowest feasible cost.

 

[ZuZu]

Not making excuses for Mr. Clyman, but he says on the Cockpit website that the current issue A-2 was designed to incorporate changes wanted by USAF pilots. Beyond that, Cockpit is a government contractor, and we know what that means: mediocre product at the lowest feasible cost.

Everything Clyman says about this is complete bullshit. I lived in those times- I had old Avirex 1978 jackets. Same POS jacket as the supposed pilot inspired new A-2. And I kind of disagree about what you say military stuff- they have standards. CWU's are well designed and sewn as are most actual uniform items. No- I think Clyman lobbied and finally got his way and ruined the whole idea. Hell- look at the new Navy Surface Warfare black jacket- it's cool- it has weird design elements that are interesting (like the odd velcro pocket flaps with fake buttons) and it's very specific.

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

Everything Clyman says about this is complete bullshit. I lived in those times- I had old Avirex 1978 jackets. Same POS jacket as the supposed pilot inspired new A-2. And I kind of disagree about what you say military stuff- they have standards. CWU's are well designed and sewn as are most actual uniform items. No- I think Clyman lobbied and finally got his way and ruined the whole idea. Hell- look at the new Navy Surface Warfare black jacket- it's cool- it has weird design elements that are interesting (like the odd velcro pocket flaps with fake buttons) and it's very specific.

I joined the USAF 60 years ago. I was discharged 56 years ago. I shouldn't be opining on matters which have occurred since. The CWU did not exist then. I have one now, and I like it. I have an old Avirex B-15 leather jacket. The leather is not damaged at all, but the color of the leather has not stood up at all well: the sleeves are a different color than the body, , and the color of the back is much more faded on one side than the other. I was not a great fan of the clothing given aircrews in the mid-1960's. The flight suits were flammable; if you put them in a dryer on "high" they were truly too hot to handle when dried.

 

[FtrPlt]

One more thought: what is the likelihood that a leather A-2 was actually worn in the operations of the Gulf War? I was under the impression that the temperature got pretty hot in the region of operations.

The USAF A-2 wasn't authorized for flight use when it was reintroduced. I flew into the early 2000s and it was never authorized for flight use, insofar as I'm aware.

 

[Pilot]

From the net:

 

[Pilot]

 

[FtrPlt]

The most recent dress regs (Feb 2024) still restrict the A-2 to ground use only so USAF referring to it as a flying jacket continues to be misleading.

9.5.2. Leather A-2 Flying Jacket. The Leather A-2 Flying Jacket is authorized for ground wear only unless prohibited by MAJCOM supplement. Authorized individuals are listed in paragraph 9.5.2.3 and paragraph 10.7.6. The Leather A-2 Flying Jacket may be worn with service uniform (Class B), flight duty uniform (FDU), two-piece flight duty uniform (2PFDU) or Desert FDU (DFDU) (not service dress uniform). Note: With the exception of the Secretary, and the Under Secretary of the Air Force, it is not to be worn with civilian clothes. 9.5.2.1. Configure Leather A-2 Flying Jacket Velcro® with MAJCOM patch and nametag IAW paragraph 9.5.2.2. 9.5.2.2. Leather A-2 Flying Jacket Accoutrements. The nametag is 2 x 4-inches, brown or black leather, simulated leather. Emboss with wings or qualifying badge, first and last name, rank, and USAF. Members may add an inside pocket, at their expense, when it does not detract from the external appearance. The wing and star patch maybe worn by individuals not assigned to a MAJCOM. Gloves if worn will be black leather, knitted, tricot or suede, or a combination of leather, knitted, tricot, and suede. Note: Generals (4 Star), regardless of their Air Force Specialty Code are authorized to wear the Leather A-2 Flying Jacket.

Source: https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/dafi36-2903/dafi36-2903.pdf

 

[Thomas Koehle]

Those jackets do not look as bad as i expected ...

 

[B-Man2]

The most recent dress regs (Feb 2024) still restrict the A-2 to ground use only so USAF referring to it as a flying jacket continues to be misleading.

9.5.2. Leather A-2 Flying Jacket. The Leather A-2 Flying Jacket is authorized for ground wear only unless prohibited by MAJCOM supplement. Authorized individuals are listed in paragraph 9.5.2.3 and paragraph 10.7.6. The Leather A-2 Flying Jacket may be worn with service uniform (Class B), flight duty uniform (FDU), two-piece flight duty uniform (2PFDU) or Desert FDU (DFDU) (not service dress uniform). Note: With the exception of the Secretary, and the Under Secretary of the Air Force, it is not to be worn with civilian clothes. 9.5.2.1. Configure Leather A-2 Flying Jacket Velcro® with MAJCOM patch and nametag IAW paragraph 9.5.2.2. 9.5.2.2. Leather A-2 Flying Jacket Accoutrements. The nametag is 2 x 4-inches, brown or black leather, simulated leather. Emboss with wings or qualifying badge, first and last name, rank, and USAF. Members may add an inside pocket, at their expense, when it does not detract from the external appearance. The wing and star patch maybe worn by individuals not assigned to a MAJCOM. Gloves if worn will be black leather, knitted, tricot or suede, or a combination of leather, knitted, tricot, and suede. Note: Generals (4 Star), regardless of their Air Force Specialty Code are authorized to wear the Leather A-2 Flying Jacket.

Source: https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/dafi36-2903/dafi36-2903.pdf

“Not to be worn with civilian clothes”
So there’s a tell tale as to whether anyone wearing one of these with civilian clothes is currently in the Air Force.

 

[FtrPlt]

My 2-cents:
1. These jackets will be collectible in some way. It's inevitable. Are they on par with WW2-era jackets? Obviously not. But, they are on par with other general issue garments like the M65 field jackets, etc.

2. Someone made the comment that they will not be collectible because Desert Storm wasn't WW2. IMO, a false equivalent. Vietnam wasn't exactly a popular war but prices of militaria from that war continue to go up.

3. Another post says they'll never be discussed in the same way the differences in ww2 jackets are discussed. Again, these discussions are already occurring -- Avirex contract is Cockpit contract vs Saddlery, etc.

4. Someone commenting on wearing jackets during the Gulf War. I don't recall ever flying much without a jacket (nomex) -- regardless of ground temps. Aircraft systems fail (it's cold at altitude); jets cover a fair amount of ground -- never know where you might potentially land; and it gets pretty cold at night in the desert.

5. Wearing these in flight produces some true oddities. Flight crews can't wear them but can a pax wear one as part of their class B uniform if flying space-available? If the answer is yes, then these become authorized for flight for passengers but not the flight crew

 

[B-Man2]

My 2-cents:
1. These jackets will be collectible in some way. It's inevitable. Are they on par with WW2-era jackets? Obviously not. But, they are on par with other general issue garments like the M65 field jackets, etc.

2. Someone made the comment that they will not be collectible because Desert Storm wasn't WW2. IMO, a false equivalent. Vietnam wasn't exactly a popular war but prices of militaria from that war continue to go up.

3. Another post says they'll never be discussed in the same way the differences in ww2 jackets are discussed. Again, these discussions are already occurring -- Avirex contract is Cockpit contract vs Saddlery, etc.

4. Someone commenting on wearing jackets during the Gulf War. I don't recall ever flying much without a jacket (nomex) -- regardless of ground temps. Aircraft systems fail (it's cold at altitude); jets cover a fair amount of ground -- never know where you might potentially land; and it gets pretty cold at night in the desert.

5. Wearing these in flight produces some true oddities. Flight crews can't wear them but can a pax wear one as part of their class B uniform if flying space-available? If the answer is yes, then these become authorized for flight for passengers but not the flight crew

Agree with you… like most things in life … you really never know what’s going to be a “Collectable” in 60 or 70 years until it becomes desired by collectors . One thing for sure .. things that are made and sold as “collectables “ usually never will be.
It’s just a marketing strategy.

 

[ZuZu]

My 2-cents:
1. These jackets will be collectible in some way. It's inevitable. Are they on par with WW2-era jackets? Obviously not. But, they are on par with other general issue garments like the M65 field jackets, etc.

2. Someone made the comment that they will not be collectible because Desert Storm wasn't WW2. IMO, a false equivalent. Vietnam wasn't exactly a popular war but prices of militaria from that war continue to go up.

3. Another post says they'll never be discussed in the same way the differences in ww2 jackets are discussed. Again, these discussions are already occurring -- Avirex contract is Cockpit contract vs Saddlery, etc.

4. Someone commenting on wearing jackets during the Gulf War. I don't recall ever flying much without a jacket (nomex) -- regardless of ground temps. Aircraft systems fail (it's cold at altitude); jets cover a fair amount of ground -- never know where you might potentially land; and it gets pretty cold at night in the desert.

5. Wearing these in flight produces some true oddities. Flight crews can't wear them but can a pax wear one as part of their class B uniform if flying space-available? If the answer is yes, then these become authorized for flight for passengers but not the flight crew

You're right about "...collectible in some way." A very niche thing. The modern A-2 simply has no character- it was the standardized vision of an idiot (Jeff Clyman) and it's materials are second rate. The CWUs are much more interesting as militaria IMO.

 

[mulceber]

Jeff, I'm glad you're posting on here more frequently again.

 

[ZuZu]

If you don't believe my history it's right there on the Cockpit site:

He did a lot of "adapting"! The pocket flaps became...well... this:

the color officially is that odd corpse seal brown and the knits the Pillmaster Acrylic crap.

 

[mulceber]

Oh I'm not doubting you. The laugh-react on your previous post was because of how bluntly you stated it, not because I disagree.