Looks Like AVI is Back in the Game!

[g1jacketfan]

Are the Talon zippers that AVI uses genuine new old stock or modern authentic? Or are they modern Asian (non-licensed) copies of vintage Talon zippers?

 

[B-Man2]

Not old stock and I’m pretty sure they are repros from China, but there are others here more knowledgeable than I am on the subject.
Edit;
Wikipedia lists talon zippers as being produced in Asia … so I guess you can make your own assumptions.

 

[mulceber]

Not old stock and I’m pretty sure they are repros from China, but there are others here more knowledgeable than I am on the subject.

Come to think, I'm not sure where they cheapo ones come from. I was under the impression that they were manufactured by Waldes, which is based in Japan and (I THINK) owns the Talon name, but I'm not certain. And if they are produced by Waldes, I don't know if they're made in Japan or if they outsourced to China for the sake of cost-cutting.

 

[B-Man2]

Come to think, I'm not sure where they cheapo ones come from. I was under the impression that they were manufactured by Waldes, which is based in Japan and (I THINK) owns the Talon name, but I'm not certain. And if they are produced by Waldes, I don't know if they're made in Japan or if they outsourced to China for the sake of cost-cutting.

Jan
I just did a Wikipedia on Talon. It kind of skirts the issue and says they are made in “Asia” . That’s a big place so I guess they’re trying to point to China without actually saying it. Just my opinion.
Check my edit above .

 

[mulceber]

Just pulled up that article myself. The Waldes bit I said above is wrong, although they were acquired by another company. I think you're right - probably made in China.

 

[g1jacketfan]

So even if they are produced in Asia, should we assume they are official Talon product and made to Talon standards and original patents? The Talons used are not counterfeit, correct?

 

[JonnyCrow]

Come to think, I'm not sure where they cheapo ones come from. I was under the impression that they were manufactured by Waldes, which is based in Japan and (I THINK) owns the Talon name, but I'm not certain. And if they are produced by Waldes, I don't know if they're made in Japan or if they outsourced to China for the sake of cost-cutting.

What isn't outsourced in Asia now Jan, good old British Dr Martens boots are made in Vietnam now, the most anyway

 

[B-Man2]

So even if they are produced in Asia, should we assume they are official Talon product and made to Talon standards and original patents? The Talons used are not counterfeit, correct?

I guess the answer to your question would depend on knowing some specific info with regard to the licensing agreements Talon has with other makers and what they actually produce themselves . If you check the link below you will see that they provide a shit pot of zippers for everything from jackets to clothing to handbags and more. So to be more specific if you don’t know what the licensing agreements are, it comes down to; How do you tell a legitimately licensed zipper made in China …… from an unlicensed zipper ….made in China ?

ZIPPERS - Talon International Inc.

Talon International provides fully customized products and solutions for clients, ranging from zippers and packaging to trims and tags.

taloninternational.com

Talon Zipper - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[g1jacketfan]

I guess the answer to your question would depend on knowing some specific info with regard to the licensing agreements Talon has with other makers and what they actually produce themselves . If you check the link below you will see that they provide a shit pot of zippers for everything from jackets to clothing to handbags and more. So to be more specific if you don’t know what the licensing agreements are, it comes down to; How do you tell a legitimately licensed zipper made in China …… from an unlicensed zipper ….made in China ?

ZIPPERS - Talon International Inc.

Talon International provides fully customized products and solutions for clients, ranging from zippers and packaging to trims and tags.

taloninternational.com

Talon Zipper - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That makes sense. I guess it would be up to the owner of AVI to disclose/verify if they are sourcing authentic Talons.

 

[g1jacketfan]

The AVI web site says "M-39 triple-marked Talon zipper". https://www.avileather.com/product/g1-flight-jacket/

 

[B-Man2]

The AVI web site says "M-39 triple-marked Talon zipper". https://www.avileather.com/product/g1-flight-jacket/

I’m not sure if you’re aware of it but the owner of AVI leather is a member on this forum. His screen name is “Mortene”.
That might be a question you’d like to ask him about .

 

[mulceber]

The AVI web site says "M-39 triple-marked Talon zipper". https://www.avileather.com/product/g1-flight-jacket/

Yeah, those are the cheapo ones. Here's a close-up comparison:

Original Talon M-39:

Cheapo Repro:

The zipper pull is more square on the repro and the bridge of the slider is broader. Not a huge difference, and even many jacket lovers won't care. It really stands out to the zipper nerds though.

 

[g1jacketfan]

Yeah, those are the cheapo ones. Here's a close-up comparison:

Original Talon M-39:
View attachment 88327

Cheapo Repro:
View attachment 88329

The zipper pull is more square on the repro and the bridge of the slider is broader. Not a huge difference, and even many jacket lovers won't care. It really stands out to the zipper nerds though.

Thanks - I can see the difference. So by "cheap repro" do you mean the AVI Talon zippers are unauthorized Asian knock-offs (not genuine licensed Talon product)?

Are there any objective differences in quality in these repros?

 

[mulceber]

Yep, those are what AVI uses, although my understanding is that they are made by Talon (even though it's a very different company in a very different country than it was way back in WW2). Ironically, unauthorized Talons are MUCH better:

Here's a an original M-42 talon (note the un-marked bridge of the slider, which distinguishes it from the M-39):

And here's an unauthorized repro from...well, none of us really know who makes them. But they show up on Eastman, BK and GW jackets a lot:

 

[g1jacketfan]

Yep, those are what AVI uses, although my understanding is that they are made by Talon (even though it's a very different company in a very different country than it was way back in WW2). Ironically, unauthorized Talons are MUCH better:

Here's a an original M-42 talon (note the un-marked bridge of the slider, which distinguishes it from the M-39):

And here's an unauthorized repro from...well, none of us really know who makes them. But they show up on Eastman, BK and GW jackets a lot:
View attachment 88331

Interesting. So the good news is that AVI is using an authorized modern official Talon product. The bad news is modern Talon doesn't make a cosmetically accurate reproduction. But in terms of functionality and robustness (not cosmetics) are the current authorized Talon's inferior to the vintage originals?

As far as the cosmetics, even if the original tooling is long gone, modern day Talon could just 3D scan some vintage ones and then 3d print some new molds for tooling and ship the new tooling over China or wherever they make them now...

So Eastman is using knock-off, unlicensed, un-Authorized Talon repros? I guess the takeaway is the top tier reproduction makers are using "counterfeit" Talons because they cosmetically look more accurate?

 

[mulceber]

So Eastman is using knock-off, unlicensed, un-Authorized Talon repros? I guess the takeaway is the top tier reproduction makers are using "counterfeit" Talons because they cosmetically look more accurate?

Yep! That's about the size of it!

But in terms of functionality and robustness (not cosmetics) are the current authorized Talon's inferior to the vintage originals?

Not as far as I can tell. I've heard some people comment that the repros (both authorized and unauthorized) don't zip quite as smoothly as the originals did, but I haven't noticed a difference. Maybe it's just a case of rose-tinted glasses. At any rate, the repros are all well-constructed and should work like gangbusters.

 

[ZuZu]

The top tier repro makers are NOT using COUNTERFEIT Talons! They are using products from a few Japanese companies who PAY Talon a fee to use their name! That's why you can buy a Waldes copy of a Talon which doesn't say Talon (but rather Waldes) for about $12 whereas their repro Talon with "Talon" marked on it costs $28. They have to pay a fee. They are licensed by Talon.
e.g.:

 

[ZuZu]

Waldes copy with Talon on it:

 

[g1jacketfan]

The top tier repro makers are NOT using COUNTERFEIT Talons! They are using products from a few Japanese companies who PAY Talon a fee to use their name! That's why you can buy a Waldes copy of a Talon which doesn't say Talon (but rather Waldes) for about $12 whereas their repro Talon with "Talon" marked on it costs $28. They have to pay a fee. They are licensed by Talon.
e.g.:

View attachment 88333

Great info! So AVI and the top tier reproduction houses are all using authorized new Talon zippers, but the more accurately shaped ones are licensed Japanese repros.

In terms of quality, have you noticed any difference between the Japanese Talons and Chinese (?) Talons?

Does AVI offer the ability to "upgrade" to the Japanese licensed Talon instead of the standard Chinese-produced Talon? I would imagine some AVI customers would be willing to pay an extra $30 for a more historically accurate zipper.

 

[ZuZu]

The modern Talons that Avi and others use are not quality items at all. They are loosey-goosey modern Talons which look nothing like originals. The body of the slider is blocky and square with no shoulders at all. They are basically these:

all dressed up to look like the WW2 sliders: