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G-1 PX Purchase Jackets: Are They Military or Civilian?
- Thread starter pipvh
- Start date
capt71
Member
I guess I'm puzzled.
Let's say military pilot "A" has an A-2 jacket "officially" issued to him and military pilot "B", for whatever reason, purchases that same A-2 at a military Exchange.
They then both wear the jackets in their duties for years, with the various patches, etc, attached.
Is it the opinion here, then, that the pilot "A" issued jacket is more worthy, authentic, and valuable than the jacket pilot "B" had to pay for?
(Remember, both jackets were manufactured by the same supplier, at the same time, with the same official specs--the difference being that one was issued and the other was not).
Is pilot "B's" jacket considered to be a "civilian" model ONLY because it wasn't officially issued to him/her, was supplied to the Exchange as an overrun, and the labeling (by military orders) may be somewhat different?
I can see a difference if a jacket had been specifically manufactured for the civilian mass market and sold in department stores. Otherwise, I don't see the problem or dilemma. If pilot "A" and pilot "B" stood side by side I doubt that anyone would see any difference in the jackets.
Let's say military pilot "A" has an A-2 jacket "officially" issued to him and military pilot "B", for whatever reason, purchases that same A-2 at a military Exchange.
They then both wear the jackets in their duties for years, with the various patches, etc, attached.
Is it the opinion here, then, that the pilot "A" issued jacket is more worthy, authentic, and valuable than the jacket pilot "B" had to pay for?
(Remember, both jackets were manufactured by the same supplier, at the same time, with the same official specs--the difference being that one was issued and the other was not).
Is pilot "B's" jacket considered to be a "civilian" model ONLY because it wasn't officially issued to him/her, was supplied to the Exchange as an overrun, and the labeling (by military orders) may be somewhat different?
I can see a difference if a jacket had been specifically manufactured for the civilian mass market and sold in department stores. Otherwise, I don't see the problem or dilemma. If pilot "A" and pilot "B" stood side by side I doubt that anyone would see any difference in the jackets.
Atticus
Well-Known Member
As to question one, above...no, that isn't my opinion. If Jimmy Doolittle had a personal A-2 that he had purchased in 1940 directly from (the original) Aero Leather...I would think it would be decidedly more valuable than most issued A-2s.capt71 said:
As to question two, above...yes, my opinion is that B's jacket is civilian because it was sold on the civilian market and not issued.
AF
dav3469
Active Member
I think it is easy to get wrapped around the axel when using and intermingling the words "issue/issued", "military issue item" and "civilian". As an example, during previous employment
I supervised the SAR team as part of my duties for a County Sheriffs Dept. The local military base (Army Airfield) lent its support by making available items, and or repair services on various pieces of gear. Flight gear included.
One day the ALSE tech who assisted us was servicing my flight helmet and inspected the jacket I was wearing. It was one of those Nomex jackets that the Army issues to its Helicopter crews and combat vehicle crewmen. I had purchased it privately via the CAP who had jackets available that the military had released to them. The ALSE tech told me that it was too worn, and indicated that its fire retardant abilities were degraded. I had no idea. He called, then sent me over to the clothing/gear issue area. The Sgt. there deadlined my old jacket and replaced it.
The jacket I was given is a "military issue" jacket, but was not "issued", as I am not a military member. But the jacket is absolutely not "civilian" as it is not something that was manufactured for purchase in your local department store. I guess "Repurposed" military jacket may be a more accurate way to describe what we are talking about maybe?
I supervised the SAR team as part of my duties for a County Sheriffs Dept. The local military base (Army Airfield) lent its support by making available items, and or repair services on various pieces of gear. Flight gear included.
One day the ALSE tech who assisted us was servicing my flight helmet and inspected the jacket I was wearing. It was one of those Nomex jackets that the Army issues to its Helicopter crews and combat vehicle crewmen. I had purchased it privately via the CAP who had jackets available that the military had released to them. The ALSE tech told me that it was too worn, and indicated that its fire retardant abilities were degraded. I had no idea. He called, then sent me over to the clothing/gear issue area. The Sgt. there deadlined my old jacket and replaced it.
The jacket I was given is a "military issue" jacket, but was not "issued", as I am not a military member. But the jacket is absolutely not "civilian" as it is not something that was manufactured for purchase in your local department store. I guess "Repurposed" military jacket may be a more accurate way to describe what we are talking about maybe?
Atticus
Well-Known Member
OK, I see what you're saying.
But when I say "issued" I am probably using the term loosely. By issued I mean provided by the military. Employing my use of the term, your nomex jacket was "issued" in that the Army provided it to you out of the Army's inventory...even though you aren't in the Army.
AF
But when I say "issued" I am probably using the term loosely. By issued I mean provided by the military. Employing my use of the term, your nomex jacket was "issued" in that the Army provided it to you out of the Army's inventory...even though you aren't in the Army.
AF
dav3469
Active Member
Atticus said:
I agree completely. And I think their are a fair number of jackets out their like this. Be it similar to my example, or items that were released to PX's, Aux. Organizations such as the CAP, or some other entity, but didn't have their tags or labels altered or removed like is called for evidently.
To me it does not mean much, but I guess to a collector who places great emphasis on something that has "been" there, and starts laying out more money in this belief, it can be a very important issue over the term "issued".
capt71
Member
Ah, but remember, a military base exchange (BX, PX, Navy Exchange, etc) is NOT part of the "civilian market", and only active military, retired military, and dependents are allowed to shop at those exchanges. Some items sold there are not available on the civilian market.Atticus said:
I guess my position is, that just because an article was not officially "issued" to a military member, but, instead, purchased by that member at a military exchange, does not automatically make it a "civilian" item. When I was serving in the USAF, I was required to buy certain official uniform items that were not automatically "issued" to me (such as my Mess Dress (formal) uniforms, blues, and, at that time, tan 1505's). That did not make them "civilian" items.
Bill
capt71
Member
dav3469 said:deeb7 said:
Ahh exactly.. Thanks.. That was the term I was looking for earlier.... I think that explains alot on this "issue"!
Ah, yes, those pesky "semantics" again.... Thanks for the clarification.
HOWEVER (yeah, I know, another "however" :roll: )--and not to beat a dead horse(hide)--but the prevailing opinion seems to be that a vintage "issued" jacket is more valued by collectors than a vintage "private purchase" jacket (with everything being equal--meaning that the private purchase jacket was not owned by a famous person and was identical in every respect to the issued item, and purchased through a military facility)?
Not being a collector, perhaps I'm just splitting hairs, and now will let the subject go as my head hurts
.semantics.....to me an 'issue' item is one that is made by a contractor for the military with all of it's correct nomenclature labels etc. Those would include items of overrun which may still include partial nomenclature labels from a contractor and sold through military exchange sales. It doesn't necessarily have to have been 'in the system' as it is the same as the items in the system and made for the system. An 'issued' item is one which was actually issued to a serviceman by the system, and may or may not be in 'used' condition.
Items made by a contractor not destined for the system and without official military nomenclature labels are not official 'issue' even though identical to issue.
Items made by a contractor not destined for the system and without official military nomenclature labels are not official 'issue' even though identical to issue.
galvestonokie
Active Member
Flying Equipment Co: summarizing other VLJ posts (too lazy to go find them all): Flying Equipment Co. was a Chicago-based supplier of flying/aircraft equipment following WWII. I have seen their newspaper/magazine ads for Jackets (G-1 and A-2), aircraft tires, batteries, goggles, etc. They were NOT a jacket manufacturer. I also recall that an analysis from knowing people revealed that Star provided most/all of the FEC's flight jackets. Some years ago, i purchased an FEC 55J14 on eBay and used it for personal patching. It is a great jacket. And, i personally don't care if it was issued/Navy Exchange, or sold by a newspaper ad--it works for me as a record of my service. Great jacket. Flying Equipment Co. was a supplier to aviation who purchased their products, didn't manufacture them.
Spitfireace
Well-Known Member
Probably just not as desirable for the jacket collecting community. Although worthy of wearing. Side note where are all these posters now thirteen years later? I don't recognize any of them except for B-man2 still posting.
