G-1 PX Purchase Jackets: Are They Military or Civilian?

[pipvh]

Hello everybody,

First, thanks for an amazing resource here at VLJ - I've only lurked for a couple of days but I feel educated already!

I'm on the hunt for my first vintage G-1 and there's a question that's been puzzling me: occasionally there's a jacket that has a military-ish label that's described as a PX purchase. Now I'm not from the USA but I have a fairly good idea what the PX is. But regarding jackets, did G-1 contract holders sell jackets through the PX - so same jacket, but not officially issued? Were they different jackets? And do these count as military or civilian bearing in mind they've been sold through a military outlet?

I'm particularly thinking of the mysterious Flight Equipment Co. of Chicago, which some people (including, I believe, John Chapman, though I don't have his DVD) regard as having a contract, and others see as civilian replicas.

 

[MikeyB-17]

Yes, I had one a couple of years ago by Irvin B. Foster. Usual label, but no USN on the windflap, and a 2-piece main back panel. This was the thread pertaining to it:-

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=711

 

[deeb7]

I'm particularly thinking of the mysterious Flight Equipment Co. of Chicago, which some people (including, I believe, John Chapman, though I don't have his DVD) regard as having a contract, and others see as civilian replicas.

With Flying Equipment Co, I'm one of the non-believers ... just the fact that their A-2 used the same contract number on the label should be enough.

Here's an earlier thread:

viewtopic.php?p=52134

 

[pipvh]

With Flying Equipment Co, I'm one of the non-believers ... just the fact that their A-2 used the same contract number on the label should be enough.

Yeah, that seems fishy. But what about the ones with a 55J14 label? Just a period replica or something else? The 55J14 ones I've seen don't have a contract number, though, which has to mean something.

Meanwhile I'm gathering that sometimes the official manufacturers made more jackets than the contract called for, labeled them differently and sold them to PX and to the civilian market... Is that more or less correct?

 

[deeb7]

Yeah, that seems fishy. But what about the ones with a 55J14 label? Just a period replica or something else? The 55J14 ones I've seen don't have a contract number, though, which has to mean something.

I think they were all civilian market, though I would like to hear what John says on his CD ... my copy's too early.

Meanwhile I'm gathering that sometimes the official manufacturers made more jackets than the contract called for, labeled them differently and sold them to PX and to the civilian market... Is that more or less correct?

Yes, though the A-2, and B-15 styles seemed to be the most popular on the post war civilian market.

 

[porkchop]

Hey guys...it's been a long time since I have posted anything, but here goes. There has been considerable consternation over the past few years as to the difference between an "issue" and "reproduction" G-1. I would like to at least provide a slightly different perspective on this subject. A number of years of ago I was a Navy Supply Corps officer and one of my postings included serving as senior senior supply officer (called a "porkchop" because of the shape of our corps insignia) for a number of deployed squadrons. One of my duties required me to control the issue, purchase and destruction of G-1 flight jackets.

While many jacket manufacturers supplied us with jackets, there were a few that also provided overruns to the Navy Exchange System (NES). If a manufacturer made a contract overrun they could provide that overrun to the NES as long as they followed very specific rules, to wit: (1) the USN "punch" could not be in the windflap (but I never saw this enforced...some NES jackets had it, others didn't); and (2) the label had to be changed (this was enforced). The NES jackets came off the same manufacturing line as the "issue" jackets. Therefore, these jackets were not "reproductions." The manufacturers that I am intimately aware of that did this practice on a continual basis were Brill, Orchard, Cooper and Excelled. (Of course there may have been others that I am not aware of.) So, from my perspective of dealing directly with these companies, NES and the Navy Supply System, these jacket are not reproductions in any way, shape or form. Your take may be different.

The only "reproductions" that we typically saw were from San Diego Leather. Heavy jackets that "fit" funny, but still met various individual's needs.

Now, regarding U.S.Wings and Gibson and Barnes, we may be dealing with a different animal. I say different because we (the squadron) did order some U.S. Wings jackets a time or two. This was typically for some weird, very large sizes or quick delivery. We did this as well with Gibson and Barnes. By the way, U.S. Wings truly does have a contract with the U.S. Coast Guard to supply G-1s with the USCG punch in the windflap. To get a better quality and fitting (custom fitted to be exact) G-1 many squadrons on the West Coast went directly to Gibson and Barnes. (Our squadrons did.) And, yes, the Blue Angels do indeed get their flight jackets, flight suits and helmets (at least they used to get their helmets) custom fitted at Gibson and Barnes. In fact, the last time I was there [for a fitting] the "Blues" were also getting fitted and caused all the young ladies to become all a-twitter because one of the pilots was wearing SpongeBob boxers as they were getting measured for their form-fitting flightsuits.

So, the real question is: U.S.Wings and G&B provide jackets that are sewn exactly to the government spec and provide squadron "issue" jackets. I don't know...it's definitely not a government issue jacket, but I can't come to the conclusion that these are reproductions. My view of "reproductions" encompasses manufacturers such as Goodwear, Aero, et al.

Please don't flame me too badly!

Thanks.

 

[deeb7]

So, the real question is: U.S.Wings and G&B provide jackets that are sewn exactly to the government spec and provide squadron "issue" jackets. I don't know...it's definitely not a government issue jacket, but I can't come to the conclusion that these are reproductions. My view of "reproductions" encompasses manufacturers such as Goodwear, Aero, et al.

Hi Porkchop ... the original question was military, or civilian. There certainly are some grey areas, but I think a jacket is either issued, or not.

And although they may be made to the same specifications, even at the same time, if they're not issued, I would call them civilian. If they were copies made later, then maybe reproduction.

 

[pipvh]

Thanks, Porkchop - that's exactly the kind of info I was after. Interesting: you say that quite a few NES jackets DID have the perforations on the windflap - so that isn't a failsafe indicator of an issue jacket.

Deeb7 - it's difficult for it not to boil down to semantics, I suppose, especially if an overrun of a military contract gets sold to the same personnel who received the issue jacket. But you're right: if they aren't issued, they aren't issued.

I've found one of those Flying Equipment Co jackets on the Bay with a BUAER 55J14(AER) label but no contract number. It has a perforated windflap, rib-rack knits. But a 55J14 would have had USN on the collar back, not on the windflap. So I think Porkchop might have explained that. It's a nice jacket in good nick but I think, for my first G-1, I should get an issued one.

 

[porkchop]

I understand your point, Deeb, but I will have to respectively disagree. And that's okay.

 

[pipvh]

I suppose the real hair-splitting takes place when considering 'civilian' next to 'private purchase'...

 

[deeb7]

I'm surprised that my pointing out that civilian is different to reproduction is seen as semantics ... to me they are two quite different things.

And I wouldn't classify a jacket as issued if it was available at the PX ... I figure if I could buy it, it ain't issued.

 

[pipvh]

Sorry, Deeb - my point about semantics was a bit cheeky, and was aimed specifically at the example of an overrun from a contract - the exact same jacket as issue - being sold at the PX as a civilian jacket. Obviously, if it hasn't been issued it isn't an issue jacket.

Reproductions are a whole separate issue, in every way.

 

[unclegrumpy]

I can remember in the earlier/mid seventies when the Navy was very strict about who could wear a G-1 and when. They were considered a piece of flight gear, and I distinctly recall a sign at the Gate of NAS Alameda as you left that said under no circumstances were flight jackets to be worn on the civilian side of the gate.

To my surprise in the late seventies, I remember being totally shocked to see a rack of G-1's for sale in the Navy Exchange. These were the same jackets that were being issued at the time and had the USN in the wind flap, but had the addition of a second commercial label partly covering the standard military contract label. I have one of these double labeled jackets that was made by Cooper.

About then, you could also buy a G-1 in Clothing Sales even if you were not authorized one, you just could not wear it on base. These were the exact jackets that were being issued at the time. Note the interesting change in policy here.

I am not exactly sure what to call the double labeled Cooper I have. I don't think it is a reproduction, but it is not issue either. I have known Navy veterans with these jackets that they patched and wore while on active duty, but bought in the Navy Exchange, because they had to turn in their issue jacket. You would never know the difference unless you saw the label.

 

[bjoy]

I'm on the hunt for my first vintage G-1 and there's a question that's been puzzling me: occasionally there's a jacket that has a military-ish label that's described as a PX purchase. Now I'm not from the USA but I have a fairly good idea what the PX is. But regarding jackets, did G-1 contract holders sell jackets through the PX - so same jacket, but not officially issued? Were they different jackets? And do these count as military or civilian bearing in mind they've been sold through a military outlet?

I'm particularly thinking of the mysterious Flight Equipment Co. of Chicago, which some people (including, I believe, John Chapman, though I don't have his DVD) regard as having a contract, and others see as civilian replicas.

I noticed one of these Flying Equipment Co jackets on eBay today, and being still curious did yet another search to see if any new information had popped up.

I was amazed to find that this company advertised its G-1 jackets in the US Naval Academy yearbooks for 1959 through 1961 as "genuine" and "USN issue brand new".

http://www.e-yearbook.com/yearbooks...Academy_Lucky_Bag_Yearbook/1959/Page_554.html
http://www.e-yearbook.com/yearbooks...Academy_Lucky_Bag_Yearbook/1960/Page_692.html
http://www.e-yearbook.com/yearbooks...Academy_Lucky_Bag_Yearbook/1961/Page_679.html

 

[B-Man2]

I see that both sides of the question have merit, however.....20 years after the over run contract G-1 jackets that were purchased in the PX having the same label, preforations etc etc. hit the civillian market (Ebay) .....Who's going to know if they were truely issued jackets or private purchase ones?

 

[deeb7]

.....Who's going to know if they were truely issued jackets or private purchase ones?

With these Flying Equipment jackets, we'll know by the label, and the lack of a contract number.

 

[Atticus]

I've posted about this jacket before. This is a NOS, D-series Brill I bought for a friend a few years ago. It was clearly a production overrun that had been slightly modified so as to be sold on the civilian market. The spec tag's DSA number had been lightly blacked out and a leather-care tag had been added, but otherwise, it was exactly like my 1970 size 48, D-series Brill. And I agree with David...it was still a civilian jacket. A jacket is either issued or not, and this one wasn't.

AF

 

[B-Man2]

This issue will no longer be a problem for future A2 and G1 collectors, as the current jackets being issued to the US Air Force and US Navy personnel now have a red, white and blue label from the DSCP (Defense Supply Center Philadelphia) sewin into the linning under the contact number tag. The DSCP label has the manufactures name on the label as well as large letters DSCP. This verifies that the jacket was in the government quartermaster system and is an issued military jacket and not a repro. I have an example of an issued jacket with the label and will try to download it into the VLJ system if any members haven't seen one.

 

[B-Man2]

For anyone interested, here's a picture of the DSCP (Defense Supply Center Philadelphia ) acceptance label listing Avirex as the manufacturer of this particular U.S. Air Force A2 Jacket.

 

[B-Man2]

Sorry Photobucket doesn't seem to be cooperating. For sure it's user error.