FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD ALERT

[Roughwear]

In the broadest sense, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual. This is precisely what the seller has done. Nowhere does he say the label has been changed or give the name of the original maker because he knows full well the jacket would not fetch much if he did!

 

[asiamiles]

What the point seems to be is that the label has been changed for no other reason than to mislead.If the zip pull was changed you could argue that it was improving,or was more contemporary,to the jacket.You could also claim it was necessary,due to the original being faulty.What is the justification for removing a near to new label and replacing it with one that has no connection to the origin of the jacket?

I guess it all depends on the motivation behind the change. If the seller changed the label merely to resell the jacket for a higher price then, well, I grant you it seems a little devious - some might say clever - but I still don't think it's on the level of the guy faking stitch holes and whatnot to make biker jackets into Luftwaffe jackets. Now that's fraudulent beaviour.

If the guy changed the label simply to improve the look of his jacket - we all makes changes from ageing, to changing zips, to adding/removing patches etc - and then elected to sell it, then I see nothing wrong. You might say he should have stated his changes in the listing but I don't think he was under any obligation to say so...denying he had done so if asked is another matter.

Did he have all this in mind when he bought the jacket in the first place? I guess we'll never know. But I still think this has been blown up out of all proportion...there's much, much worse going on on eBay all the time.

 

[sideshowjoe]

Okay, I can't stay out of this any longer. Changing the label on this jacket is no different than artfully adding a couple of zeros to a $1 check and taking it to a local merchant and buying $100 worth of goodies. It isn't a matter of degree here, it isn't a "gray area" at all-to think that this seller wasn't out to pull a fast one on some poor sap is naive. Besides the matter of the label, the former owner, markap40, stated in his description "NICE RUSSET BROWN STEER HIDE A-2 FLIGHT JACKET, ONLY FLAW IS THE HOLES ON THE COLLAR FROM A PIN". Look at the photo of the collar in the original auction and tell me this jacket is " in excellent near new shape" as this seller states. I don't think so...Bubbza collects vintage posters-I wonder how he would like it if some seller "enhanced" a new poster to make it look vintage.
Just my two cents worth,
Joe

 

[havocpaul]

I'm with you on this Joe. The new seller is out to deceive and earn himself a quick buck. The jacket as it was first sold wouldn't have much appeal to the flight jacket collectors who appreciate a known maker's label, repro or not. As now marked up with a Dubow label it could be passed off as anything from a Lost Worlds to a GW repro.

 

[rich]

Why did he change the leather name-tag I wonder?

 

[SuinBruin]

Besides the matter of the label, the former owner, markap40, stated in his description "NICE RUSSET BROWN STEER HIDE A-2 FLIGHT JACKET, ONLY FLAW IS THE HOLES ON THE COLLAR FROM A PIN".

Yep, and the new seller has listed the jacket as horsehide in the title and description. The listing explicitly states, "It's made of high quality horse hide...."

How is that NOT fraud?

 

[asiamiles]

Yep, and the new seller has listed the jacket as horsehide in the title and description. The listing explicitly states, "It's made of high quality horse hide...."

I already mentioned this earlier in the thread.

 

[SuinBruin]

Sorry, I missed that. But knowing that steer and horse cannot be readily distinguished absent forensic testing (which might not even be conclusive), how can you not conclude that this guy is misrepresenting the nature of the jacket?

 

[Peter Graham]

I've just read this thread and I reckon that the seller is a fraudin' bastard and should be shot, not for fraudin' but for stating that the jacket would make the buyer "rugged and elite" :lol:

 

[asiamiles]

Sorry, I missed that. But knowing that steer and horse cannot be readily distinguished absent forensic testing (which might not even be conclusive), how can you not conclude that this guy is misrepresenting the nature of the jacket?

I agree that claiming it's horsehide if he knows or strongly believes it be steerhide is misrepresenting the jacket, and along with the changed label suggest an act of deception. But he may believe the original seller made an error and that the jacket is indeed horsehide. I don't know.

I just find the way this listing has been brought to our attention a little strange, and while we all welcome being informed, I feel as a result it's been blown up out of all proportion...to me putting a Dubow label on a repro A-2 is quite different from say, putting a Buzz label on a cheap repro (or putting a Paul Smith label on a Marks & Spencer jacket) and claiming it to be something it's not. But if others here feel differently, that's fine. We're free to make our own judgement calls. Still, maybe someone can keep an eye on the seller and see if he does something similar again. Also, what will the buyer's reaction be?

 

[deeb7]

...to me putting a Dubow label on a repro A-2 is quite different from say, putting a Buzz label on a cheap repro (or putting a Paul Smith label on a Marks & Spencer jacket) and claiming it to be something it's not.

I don't see any difference, any undisclosed label changing is fraud.

As to the hide, it's a FAI jacket from the 80's .... they only came in cow, or goat.

 

[Burnsie]

...to me putting a Dubow label on a repro A-2 is quite different from say, putting a Buzz label on a cheap repro (or putting a Paul Smith label on a Marks & Spencer jacket) and claiming it to be something it's not.

I don't see any difference, any undisclosed label changing is fraud.

As to the hide, it's a FAI jacket from the 80's .... they only came in cow, or goat.

Agreed. IT'S FRAUD. From the listing: The tag reads; "TYPE A-2 DRAWING NO 30-1415 ORDER NO W535A.C. 27798 J.A.DUBOW MFG CO CHICAGO, ILL PROPERTY AIR FORCE U.S. ARMY 46"
OK, so he doesn't specifically state that it's Dubow repro, isn't it still clearly implied?!? And it's STEER not horse, the seller KNEW this! The fact that this sellers feedback from the previous (HONEST) seller of this jacket is still there is hilarious. Buyer beware, right?

 

[deeb7]

Also, why is brand new member suddenly screaming "FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD ALERT" in capitals?

Perhaps the member was previously markaP40, and also the original seller of the jacket.

Anyway ..... Bill seems to have ripped off his eps, and snapped his pencil.

 

[Andrew]

Perhaps the member was previously markaP40, and also the original seller of the jacket.

...I was thinking the same thing.

 

[ghq1]

Looks like we have a buyer from Australia

Excellent jacket. Wonderful seller - great communication,nicely packaged Buyer: m7235 ( 25) Aug-25-09 04:26
Flight Jacket WWII A-2 A2 horsehide vintage (#230364556225) US $397.00 View Item

 

[Roughwear]

Looks like we have a buyer from Australia

Excellent jacket. Wonderful seller - great communication,nicely packaged Buyer: m7235 ( 25) Aug-25-09 04:26
Flight Jacket WWII A-2 A2 horsehide vintage (#230364556225) US $397.00 View Item

So have you let him know that the jacket is not quite what it seems?

 

[ghq1]

Looks like we have a buyer from Australia

Excellent jacket. Wonderful seller - great communication,nicely packaged Buyer: m7235 ( 25) Aug-25-09 04:26
Flight Jacket WWII A-2 A2 horsehide vintage (#230364556225) US $397.00 View Item

So have you let him know that the jacket is not quite what it seems?

Whoops . .YES . . .forgot to mention that . . .Already sent a msg . . .