FIVESTAR LEATHER A2 JACKET

[MrBlue]

@Shawn Ali

I had a close look at the photos of your 1939 Werber Sportswear Contract A2 in this thread:

Fivestar Werber Sportswear

I’ve been hovering here for quite some time, I love my Aero’s and my schotts but bloody hell how much? Just ordering a new Werber Sportswear from Shawn at Fivestar, what an incredibly accommodating gentleman he is too, discussed leather, lining and thread options, can’t wait for the finished result.

www.vintageleatherjackets.org

I noticed some differences between your 1939 Werber and the Goodwear 1939 Werber. Please find photos and explanations of the differences below:

First issue is that the collar stand itself is too thick. I am sure you will be using a different fastener, but the thickness of the collar stand itself appears too thick to me.

Second issue is that in your Werber, the epaulettes are not visible at all from behind. In the Goodwear, they are slightly visible.

You can also see this in this image. In your Werber, the collar stand sits in front of the shoulder. In Goodwear's, it sits at the top of the shoulder. For the Goodwear:
As the epaulette moves from the shoulder to the neck, it goes further forward. So, the shoulder side of the epaulette is further back, on top of the shoulder, but the neck side of the epaulette is further forward.

Next issue is on the epaulettes themselves. Notice that Goodwear's does not have stitches in those locations. Yours also look a little thicker although I am not sure.

Next issue is the pocket flaps. Your pocket flaps are the same width as the pockets - Goodwear's pocket flaps are a little wider. Suggest you make your pockets a little more narrow because Goodwear's look smaller. Also notice the bottom of the pocket flap is rounder on Goodwear's.

Last issue is the back - yours looks too baggy to me. Too much leather? Too long? I don't know, but it doesn't look right.

Hope you find something useful in my post! If you fix these issues I may purchase a Werber from you!

 

[mulceber]

Good post! I'd actually modify the statement about the placement of the epaulets: the front of the epaulet is placed at the top of the shoulder, but it's mostly actually back of the shoulder a little bit. Then, as it runs toward the neck, the epaulet arcs even further forward, if that makes sense. (Sorry, having trouble describing it)

 

[MrBlue]

I noticed something else.

The stitching used for the strip of leather to hang the jacket on a coat hook is visible on yours but not on Goodwear's. I think this is because your collar stand is too thick - it pushes the entire collar up. But maybe another reason.

 

[mulceber]

I think the collar loop stitch is also placed a little bit higher on Goodwear's, so it's a combination of two factors.

 

[MrBlue]

Good post! I'd actually modify the statement about the placement of the epaulets: the front of the epaulet is placed at the top of the shoulder, but it's mostly actually back of the shoulder a little bit. Then, as it runs toward the neck, the epaulet arcs even further forward, if that makes sense. (Sorry, having trouble describing it)

Think I understand you.

As the epaulette moves from the shoulder to the neck, it goes further forward. So, the shoulder side of the epaulette is further back, on top of the shoulder, but the neck side of the epaulette is further forward.

Like that?

 

[mulceber]

Exactly what I was trying to convey.

 

[Dario G.]

Domanda: Come mai la mia giacca ELC A2 non ha questo colletto ?!

 

[Pilot]

Domanda: Come mai la mia giacca ELC A2 non ha questo colletto ?!

Perché il tuo ELC A-2 rappresenta un contratto diverso

Translation ( approx.):
Q: Why my ELC A-2 jacket has a different collar?
A: Because your ELC A-2 represents a different contract.

 

[Thomas Koehle]

Mr. Blue,

meanwhile the discussion is cracking my nerves ...

If you want a 110% correct reproduction of a WW2 jacket and if you are worried about a few stitches i'd propose you order at Goodwear (you are already using their photos anyway).

The asking price for a new A2 at Goodwear is 1.500 bucks - Shawn sells his jackets for less than 300 bucks. Is it always people like to pay for a SKODA and expect a PORSCHE?

When i ordered at Shawn i actively made the decision i do not want a jacket in the pricerange of 1.000 USD upwards but i wanted something more economic. Thus i expected and accept differences in the accuracy. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

Period!

There is a difference inbetween garment that costs less than 30% compared to one of the pricey brands.

If i compare the first 2 jackets i ordered at Shawn's with the more recent ones there is an improvement. Fivestar really took some efforts to improve. They/he followed recommendations out of this forum - improved here an there but do you really expect what GOODWEAR, AERO, ELC needed years for he accomplishes within a couple of months? And for the still very economic price he is asking?

The more effort he takes into production of the jackets, the more specific he gets when ordering material the more he will need to raise the price otherwise he will not make any money with his business.

And - i'm 100% sure - if he raises prices exactly those "rivet-counters" will be the first to claim Shawn is after their money only.

"If you fix these issues I may purchase a Werber from you!" - do you really think that one jacket you MAYBE order (if you do not find any more flaws or stitches which you don't like) will keep FIVESTAR's business running?

Finally:
i'm pretty sure the pics of Goodwear are protected by copyrights - i would not post photos off a business HP on a forum just to help improve an other competitor-business ...

Just my 2 cents ...

 

[MrBlue]

Mr. Blue,

meanwhile the discussion is cracking my nerves ...

If you want a 110% correct reproduction of a WW2 jacket and if you are worried about a few stitches i'd propose you order at Goodwear (you are already using their photos anyway).

The asking price for a new A2 at Goodwear is 1.500 bucks - Shawn sells his jackets for less than 300 bucks. Is it always people like to pay for a SKODA and expect a PORSCHE?

When i ordered at Shawn i actively made the decision i do not want a jacket in the pricerange of 1.000 USD upwards but i wanted something more economic. Thus i expected and accept differences in the accuracy. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

Period!

There is a difference inbetween garment that costs less than 30% compared to one of the pricey brands.

If i compare the first 2 jackets i ordered at Shawn's with the more recent ones there is an improvement. Fivestar really took some efforts to improve. They/he followed recommendations out of this forum - improved here an there but do you really expect what GOODWEAR, AERO, ELC needed years for he accomplishes within a couple of months? And for the still very economic price he is asking?

The more effort he takes into production of the jackets, the more specific he gets when ordering material the more he will need to raise the price otherwise he will not make any money with his business.

And - i'm 100% sure - if he raises prices exactly those "rivet-counters" will be the first to claim Shawn is after their money only.

"If you fix these issues I may purchase a Werber from you!" - do you really think that one jacket you MAYBE order (if you do not find any more flaws or stitches which you don't like) will keep FIVESTAR's business running?

Finally:
i'm pretty sure the pics of Goodwear are protected by copyrights - i would not post photos off a business HP on a forum just to help improve an other competitor-business ...

Just my 2 cents ...

I have no idea what got you on your high horse but please look at the Doniger thread in which forum members suggested improvements to Shawn's patterns resulting in a better and more accurate product for him which will sell better.

Shawn himself has said that he welcomes feedback and suggestions from the forum. Read this thread for some examples.

 

[mulceber]

Thomas, I don't think you're quite right here: you start from the assumption that the reason for the difference in prices between GW and FS is because of accuracy, but that really isn't true: partly it's because John is a one-man operation and so he has to keep his prices high enough that he can keep up with demand (or at least prevent demand from running away from him), whereas Shawn runs a workshop/small factory. The other component in the pricing is that GW uses boutique leather, mostly Italian, Shinki, and Horween. The reviews of Shawn's leather have tended toward "fine." Your assumption seems to be that if Shawn reaches the point of making really accurate jackets, then he's going to suddenly double or triple his prices on us. I don't see it that way.

Also, Shawn has expressed interest in making his jackets better and making them as accurate as can be - indeed, that's one of the most remarkable things about him and why we're all so enthusiastic about his business. Why are you getting upset at people for trying to help him?

I think you raise some good points here: making liberal use of John's pictures without permission was, in retrospect, probably not a great idea, but John has very kindly advised Shawn on how to improve the Doniger in the past, so I think at the time it seemed reasonable to MrBlue. In general though, your whole post seems angry, and I'm not sure why.

 

[ties70]

Jan,

I think that you have some valid points but probably get Thomas' underlying intention wrong.

Yes, you are right, Shawn is willing to learn more about the specific details of the contracts he is making, but let's be honest...apart from maybe John Chapman, most of us can supply only limited input, mostly from looking at our own, maybe one-per-contract jackets that we have....none of us has de-constructed his own jacket or would send it to Shawn to have him de- and re-construct it.

So, when members here give advice on special details, for me it's a little bit like blind men talking about colors.

Why? Because Shawn is (not yet) expert enough to fully understand, how the advice he gets is translated into correct patterns, and we who give these hints have no full understanding of Shawn's pattern as well and what consequences our advice might bring for them.

Sometimes it seems easy to point to a back that's too broad or a collarstand that could be narrower...but most of us here have learned the hard way that an authentic repro is more than just the pocket flap curve or the markings on the zipper.

Which leads me to my believe that Shawn has probably come as far as he could without laying his hands on original jackets. The basic problem lies in the patterns, and maybe in the broadened variations of contracts he currently offers. I have spent time and effort on the Doniger contract, and I can say it was more than just the occasional "well, it doesn't look like on JC's website..."

Thomas did something similar with the B-10 prototype and the helmet bag...

Shawn's product is - at least for me - the absolute best price / quality offer currently available!

Maybe we can tweak his patterns a little bit further, but with every little detail adjusted, every correct zipper, snap, thread, leather source....his expertise, his material costs, and yes, his price will slightly go up...and fully justified.

What Thomas was criticizing - and I am just sorry that Mr. Blue came in at the wrong moment - is, that FS jackets get a lot of good feedback here, but hardly any orders from the "older" members.

If you check the posts about "What jacket should I get for starters?" most of us point new guys to FS.

At the same moment, we very often hear a lot of long-time members come up with "Very tempting...if he only will fix that one little detail, then I am all willing to spend my money on a FS"....

...and I just don't see that happen very often.

That's probably what Thomas was pointing at, too.

What he didn't want to say, was "Shawn will raise his prices as soon as he makes accurate jackets!"

....More the other way around:
The prices will gradually rise with the increased quality, material and craftmansship, and suddenly the guys who demanded this detail and that adjustment before ordering their first jacket will notice "with surprise" that FS jackets are not the bargain anymore...as they were when Shawn started to show up here for the first time...

Take care,

Ties

 

[MrBlue]

Frankly I don't appreciate the tone nor the anger. My post was well intentioned and I won't apologise for it. Nothing more to say really.

 

[mulceber]

Hey Ties, you raise some good points, and thinking about it some more, I can see where Thomas is coming from. I do think it's still worth helping to improve Shawn's patterns, but you and Thomas are definitely right that the more "drafts" he has to do, the more the final price tag is going to go up.

 

[Thomas Koehle]

Frankly I don't appreciate the tone nor the anger. My post was well intentioned and I won't apologise for it. Nothing more to say really.

Off coarse not YOU but i have to apologize!

Sorry for me being an a-hole which is (i think) not my usual behaviour.

Ties nailed it with his "translation" of my intend - maybe his better english capabilities ...

So once again my apologies to you MrBlue for the harsh words!

 

[B-Man2]

I’m sure Mr. Blue thought that he had the best of intentions and that he was only trying to help out with the finer points of developing a new 5 Star jacket. He’s relatively new here, so I guess that might account for his lack of knowledge about taking another companies intellectual property and passing it on to a third party company. However, the idea that it was done with the best of intentions is weak . It was done to foster a better product, that once completed, he would then benefit from by purchasing it at a lower cost than that of a Good Wear. If the response to that statement is going to be that John Chapman helped Shawn by giving him information and photos etc. then as the owner of that intellectual property that would be John Chapman’s decision, no one other than John can make that call.

 

[Smithy]

I think all these little things which can help Shawn improve are a good thing, every little bit helps. Nice spots MrBlue.

I think Jan makes some very good points about the differences between GW and 5 Star, even if Shawn gets better and better, I don't think he'll be charging GW prices. Maybe a bit more if the leather and hardwear demand it but small alterations and tweaking the details shouldn't end up breaking the bank.

And MrBlue, Thomas is a top bloke. Sometimes things get lost in translation (English isn't his first language) and on top of that we all have off days where what we type can come off a bit rapid fire and/or on the nose. His speed to say sorry though demonstrates the kind of guy he is.

 

[ButteMT61]

Every single guy here has been a d*ck from time to time - most often not intentional. We're all locked up for months on end and are passionate about this place. I don't think anyone is so sensitive here as to be butt-hurt over a couple posts...at least I hope not!
Carry on ladies...

 

[B-Man2]

OK.. I fess up.. On occasion......

 

[Smithy]

Every single guy here has been a d*ck from time to time - most often not intentional. We're all locked up for months on end and are passionate about this place. I don't think anyone is so sensitive here as to be butt-hurt over a couple posts...at least I hope not!
Carry on ladies...

I called everyone here a motherf"#¤%&r (affectionately I might add) last Friday night in the music thread after being on the piss with an American mate for most of the day and posting when I should have been getting some shuteye.

First class dick? Guilty as charged. I felt like a right tit afterwards.

We all make mistakes or say the wrong/inappropriate thing from time to time.