Sid-Vintage
New Member
Roughwear said:
The later age of the jacket makes it 101% impossible for it to be a WW2 era original. Best thing you could do is refund the guy you sold it to who seems like a decent fellah and bought in good faith...
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Der Fuehrer's Face
- Thread starter bazelot
- Start date
The later age of the jacket makes it 101% impossible for it to be a WW2 era original. Best thing you could do is refund the guy you sold it to who seems like a decent fellah and bought in good faith...
TankBuster
Active Member
just for comparison, Marcels jacket that was originally owned by Andrew is in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8196&p=74797&hilit=der#p74797
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8196&p=74797&hilit=der#p74797
Sid-Vintage
New Member
TankBuster said:
This is the jacket I am referring to as no way being 40's WW2 era.
There are a few possible explanations:
1. The crew member based in UK purchased a Doctor Who Tardis type time machine in the early 40's. Using this he travelled through time and space to mid 50's US of A and purchased the jacket with mid 50's styling including quilted lower lining and a 50's Conmar zipper. Henceforth he travelled back to WW2 Blighty, got the jacket painted up and had a rollicking good war.
2. The crew member had the 50's jacket he purchased in the 50's painted in the 50's for a get together with his mates at a big reunion bash they had planned.
3. The 50's jacket was painted by a young rascal in Thailand (talented artist by the way) along with a handful of others all bearing the exact same paint detailing and fake aging. Then sold at a flea market or Ebay along with the rest of the near identical jackets.
bazelot
Well-Known Member
What is all this BS about???!!. Where were those so called experts swearing high and low that Marcel's jacket is a fake when this very same jacket was discussed on the forum a while back and we did not hear peep from those same "experts". All this because an obvious fake just sold for $70 from Thailand. THis seller from Thailand obviously copied the style of jacket sold to Marcel and he is renowned for selling crappy jackets recently painted.
THose people now saying that the jacket sold to Marcel is an obvious fake should have opened their expert mouths when the jacket was first discussed on the forum and not bash the seller now and crush the buyer's hope that the jacket is original. Point is, it is extremely hard to say whether it's original or not and that's why I stay away from painted jackets myself. If the zipper was replaced as Andrew says then it might just be from WWII and painted by a crew member then. Further research needs to be done.
I just think that it is quite unfair to both Marcel and Andrew to trash this jacket (and I am not talking about the obvious fake that came out of Thailand). If I recall the Andrew's jacket saw quite a lot of bids and sold for upward of $500 so quite a few people at the time thought it was worth the money.
I wish all those "experts" had been as vocal in the original thread.......
THose people now saying that the jacket sold to Marcel is an obvious fake should have opened their expert mouths when the jacket was first discussed on the forum and not bash the seller now and crush the buyer's hope that the jacket is original. Point is, it is extremely hard to say whether it's original or not and that's why I stay away from painted jackets myself. If the zipper was replaced as Andrew says then it might just be from WWII and painted by a crew member then. Further research needs to be done.
I just think that it is quite unfair to both Marcel and Andrew to trash this jacket (and I am not talking about the obvious fake that came out of Thailand). If I recall the Andrew's jacket saw quite a lot of bids and sold for upward of $500 so quite a few people at the time thought it was worth the money.
I wish all those "experts" had been as vocal in the original thread.......
Grant
Well-Known Member
To be honest I never noticed the original posting. I was a little preoccupied with work and life. I guess Andrew being one of the "experts" should know better than try and pass off a 50's jacket off as wartime. Just because a fake sells for a lot of jack doesn't make it authentic. Buyer beware!
A
Anonymous
Guest
OUCH 
asiamiles
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure why some of those disputing the originality of the jacket/artwork have to do so in an aggressive manner adopting an uncalled-for sarcastic tone. Their case would be much better argued if done with simple facts. A link to the mentioned discussion from the Fedora Lounge where the jacket was apparently dissected would be helpful too.
If this jacket was made in the 50's as is being suggested (and if they are experts on such things then I would not dispute them) then obviously the artwork does not date back to WWII, though we still don't know for sure if it was done recently in Thailand.
We would also need to know the wording of the original eBay listing to know whether Andrew should refund Marcel for his purchase. If the jacket was advertised as a vintage jacket with artwork of an undetermined date then Marcel and the other bidders knew exactly what they were going for and surely no deception was intended. Andrew has himself condemned sellers offering so-called Luftwaffe jackets that were anything but (one being a motorcycle jacket that he once owned that was then tampered with), and I see no need for any character assassination here. If the artwork is proved to be fake (ie. of recent Thai origin) then he may feel obliged to work something out with Marcel, but that is probably something that should be between the two of them...but first we need facts not suppositions.
If this jacket was made in the 50's as is being suggested (and if they are experts on such things then I would not dispute them) then obviously the artwork does not date back to WWII, though we still don't know for sure if it was done recently in Thailand.
We would also need to know the wording of the original eBay listing to know whether Andrew should refund Marcel for his purchase. If the jacket was advertised as a vintage jacket with artwork of an undetermined date then Marcel and the other bidders knew exactly what they were going for and surely no deception was intended. Andrew has himself condemned sellers offering so-called Luftwaffe jackets that were anything but (one being a motorcycle jacket that he once owned that was then tampered with), and I see no need for any character assassination here. If the artwork is proved to be fake (ie. of recent Thai origin) then he may feel obliged to work something out with Marcel, but that is probably something that should be between the two of them...but first we need facts not suppositions.
dujardin
Well-Known Member
thanks Bazelot, thanks Asiamiles,
i think this discussion about origins of this jacket will never be closed till someone bring proof about the DATE of manufacture of THE jacket.
and this can be done by gentleman way. just by bringing a copy of the (dated) catalog printed by the maker.
as pointed before, this jacket was also discussed on the Fedora.
already there, the discussion turn wrong.
Andrew told me his thinking that i hope to be honest.
i buy the jacket, i assume my gesture.
and till i have not this proof of post war jacket, and of course post war painting; i will never ask a refund to him.
now if a day i receive the evidence it's a fake, maybe i will contact Andrew.....and in this case; it will be by private mail; just to found a gentleman agreement.
because i'm sure Andrew is a guy of confidence and if he learn a day this jacket is a fake, he will be the first to contact me.
now, i search in my file and remember i have a copy of the original ebay listing that i place into the discussion on the Fedora, this is the listing
so now guyssssssssss, continue the discussion; okay i enjoy to learn but please do this in gentlemen, friendly, stay cooooool,
bye byeeeeeeee
marcel
i think this discussion about origins of this jacket will never be closed till someone bring proof about the DATE of manufacture of THE jacket.
and this can be done by gentleman way. just by bringing a copy of the (dated) catalog printed by the maker.
as pointed before, this jacket was also discussed on the Fedora.
already there, the discussion turn wrong.
Andrew told me his thinking that i hope to be honest.
i buy the jacket, i assume my gesture.
and till i have not this proof of post war jacket, and of course post war painting; i will never ask a refund to him.
now if a day i receive the evidence it's a fake, maybe i will contact Andrew.....and in this case; it will be by private mail; just to found a gentleman agreement.
because i'm sure Andrew is a guy of confidence and if he learn a day this jacket is a fake, he will be the first to contact me.
now, i search in my file and remember i have a copy of the original ebay listing that i place into the discussion on the Fedora, this is the listing
so now guyssssssssss, continue the discussion; okay i enjoy to learn but please do this in gentlemen, friendly, stay cooooool,
bye byeeeeeeee
marcel
dujardin
Well-Known Member
now a pic of the label
this could be a good start for the ''expert'' to search the origins, the date of this jacket.
but nowwww :twisted: :twisted: is this the original label ?????
as you may see, he is sewed on both liners, so replace in correct position ????
or simply an addition????
i think to this because i saw many times on ebay labels (or others) for sale
original Roughwear contratc for sale....
original Crown zipper for sale
if i say no stupid thing, for my A2 ''Elisabeth'' (by GW); i request John for an original zipper.
so the question is ; have i an original jacket ???? simply by looking at the zipper ????
but also, someone replace the zipper of his original A2 with a repro zipper.
have this guy a fake jacket ?????
really difficult to be sure.
so now with this label, can someone trace the origin of my ''der fuerher's face'' jacket ???????????????
byeeeee
marcel
this could be a good start for the ''expert'' to search the origins, the date of this jacket.
but nowwww :twisted: :twisted: is this the original label ?????
as you may see, he is sewed on both liners, so replace in correct position ????
or simply an addition????
i think to this because i saw many times on ebay labels (or others) for sale
original Roughwear contratc for sale....
original Crown zipper for sale
if i say no stupid thing, for my A2 ''Elisabeth'' (by GW); i request John for an original zipper.
so the question is ; have i an original jacket ???? simply by looking at the zipper ????
but also, someone replace the zipper of his original A2 with a repro zipper.
have this guy a fake jacket ?????
really difficult to be sure.
so now with this label, can someone trace the origin of my ''der fuerher's face'' jacket ???????????????
byeeeee
marcel
dujardin
Well-Known Member
and now a link to the discussion on the fedora
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthre ... madofusaaf
everytime the same points are discussed :?: :?: :?:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthre ... madofusaaf
everytime the same points are discussed :?: :?: :?:
asiamiles
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info Marcel. The listing does specifically state that it is a wartime jacket and that the artwork also dates from this period. Andrew says in The Fedora Lounge discussion that the jacket had been in the UK for decades...so presumably he purchased it from a known and trusted source; whoever this was, they should be able to help with and could possibly clear up this discussion.
Regarding the art, I would say that surely Andrew and Marcel have been/are in the best position to assess its age as they have seen it in the flesh. Of course, even art experts have been fooled by fake Gaugin's and Picasso's. As I said, I don't know if this style of jacket was available before or after, let's say 1945...actually, the basic style seems to date back as far as the 30's but I think it's the lining here that is seen as the age signifier.
My main worry here is that's the art is painted on a civilian jacket that is roughly the same type that the person in Thailand has used for his most recent canvas for the exact same art work. And I do wonder what such a jacket would be doing in the UK in the early 40's. Would military personnel bring casual wear with them when they came over to the UK, and if so why would they paint on them rather than on say their A-2 (or B-10 if the A-2 had been phased out by that time)? To me it doesn't make much sense. I know there are instances where, and we can come up scenarios why, air-crew might be wearing private purchase leather jackets, but this type of sports coat doesn't seem the type that would be suitable for wear in the cockpit.
That label looks very familiar to me, so surely one of the experts can ID it and put a name and possibly even a date to it?
Regarding the art, I would say that surely Andrew and Marcel have been/are in the best position to assess its age as they have seen it in the flesh. Of course, even art experts have been fooled by fake Gaugin's and Picasso's. As I said, I don't know if this style of jacket was available before or after, let's say 1945...actually, the basic style seems to date back as far as the 30's but I think it's the lining here that is seen as the age signifier.
My main worry here is that's the art is painted on a civilian jacket that is roughly the same type that the person in Thailand has used for his most recent canvas for the exact same art work. And I do wonder what such a jacket would be doing in the UK in the early 40's. Would military personnel bring casual wear with them when they came over to the UK, and if so why would they paint on them rather than on say their A-2 (or B-10 if the A-2 had been phased out by that time)? To me it doesn't make much sense. I know there are instances where, and we can come up scenarios why, air-crew might be wearing private purchase leather jackets, but this type of sports coat doesn't seem the type that would be suitable for wear in the cockpit.
That label looks very familiar to me, so surely one of the experts can ID it and put a name and possibly even a date to it?
Miles_Archer
Member
I've been a dedicated collector vintage leather jackets for over 20 years. Andrew's former jacket is simply not of WWII vintage. He was clearly informed of this before the jacket to Marcel, but insisted on disputing the obvious. Be it through ignorance or crookedness it just don't matter, the upshot is that the whole thing is a revolting development. Like Grant said: buyer beware.
Miles_Archer
Member
Calm down. There was a thread about the jacket several pages long on the Fedora Lounge.bazelot said:
dujardin said:so now with this label, can someone trace the origin of my ''der fuerher's face'' jacket ???????????????
Probably I am way off base here, but this label reminds me of the McGregor label (McGregor is a trademark of David D. Doniger) from a vintage jacket I purchased last year. I looked around to see if there might be an older version of that label that looked similar. The best I could find was one in the upper left of the page at http://vintagefashionguild.lucidserver.com/label-resource/mcgregor/
Here it is for comparison. Note the coloring, borders, and even the way the style of the text "Summit Needle-Custom Construction" is similar to the "Central Sportswear of Boston". Maybe this jacket was made by Doniger with a custom private label?
