Can anyone ID this Meritorious Service pin? AAF connection?

[unclegrumpy]

Re: Can anyone ID this Meritorious Service pin? AAF connecti

Those three gizmos could be ships. When enlarged though they also look like they could be crowns. Somewhere there has to be a formal description of the medal.

I agree with you!

It would really be nice to find a description of that coat of arms to be sure. I was thinking crowns at first too, but in looking at them, they looked intentionally lop sided. Then I remembered William Penn and the Quakers coming over on three ships and all of a sudden they looked more like ships. The three ships are a big deal in Pennsylvania history.

The more important question is, what kind of coat is the lookout on the lead ship wearing?

Here is a bigger picture if that helps:

 

[stanier]

Re: Can anyone ID this Meritorious Service pin? AAF connecti

Apologies if this is mentioned previously, I haven't read all the updates, but with regards to the lion I found this on the Pennsylvania National Guard website (hope it's ok to use the quote!) which maybe resolves the lion on the medal question?

"Symbolism of the Rampant Lion Crest

The crest for the Pennsylvania National Guard portrays a rampant lion with a raised scimitar held in his right paw, and holding the shield of William Penn in his left paw. This emblem was originally devised by Benjamin Franklin in 1748, and was used as part of the flag carried by the Associators. The Associators were a defense force organized by Benjamin Franklin to protect Philadelphia from possible attack by the Spanish during the War of the Spanish Succession. From that military organization the Pennsylvania Army National Guard traces its history. Beneath the lion appears a twisted ribbon colored red and white. This color scheme indicates that the original settlements were primarily of English origin. The wreath is symbolic of a twist of silk worn beneath the crest on helmets.

As an insignia the crest is worn by members of the Headquarters, Pennsylvania Army National Guard. The crest is also used on all the colors or standards of Pennsylvania Army National Guard regiments or battalions and is placed above the head of the United States eagle."

 

[RCSignals]

Re: Can anyone ID this Meritorious Service pin? AAF connecti

That description of the Lion is interesting as the only visible difference between it and the Dutch Lion is the missing bundle of arrows which the Dutch Lion carries in the left paw. Even the vertical dashes surrounding the Dutch Lion are present. Then there is that crown which to me still looks more like the Dutch crown than any English one.

But, the whole 'Dutch' and 'Pennsylvania Dutch' I find confusing since Penn was English and the founder of an English colony not a Dutch one. A small number of Dutch settlers as I recall were in the Delaware area, not Pennsylvania. One would think sometimes from what is referenced that Pennsylvania was a Dutch colony.


Oh well, all that said we know know what the pin is :lol:

 

[SuinBruin]

Re: Can anyone ID this Meritorious Service pin? AAF connecti

IIRC the "Pennsylvania Dutch" were later immigrants from Germany ("Deutsch" being bastardized into "Dutch"). Just to add to the confusion.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Re: Can anyone ID this Meritorious Service pin? AAF connecti

Stanier,

The description you posted was for the crest below, not the one on the medal. The black and white shield the lion is holding is William Penn's coat of arms. I could not find anything that broke down the significance of the heraldry of the coat of arms on the medal.

"Symbolism of the Rampant Lion Crest

The crest for the Pennsylvania National Guard portrays a rampant lion with a raised scimitar held in his right paw, and holding the shield of William Penn in his left paw. This emblem was originally devised by Benjamin Franklin in 1748, and was used as part of the flag carried by the Associators. The Associators were a defense force organized by Benjamin Franklin to protect Philadelphia from possible attack by the Spanish during the War of the Spanish Succession. From that military organization the Pennsylvania Army National Guard traces its history. Beneath the lion appears a twisted ribbon colored red and white. This color scheme indicates that the original settlements were primarily of English origin. The wreath is symbolic of a twist of silk worn beneath the crest on helmets.

As an insignia the crest is worn by members of the Headquarters, Pennsylvania Army National Guard. The crest is also used on all the colors or standards of Pennsylvania Army National Guard regiments or battalions and is placed above the head of the United States eagle."

 

[Dr H]

Re: Can anyone ID this Meritorious Service pin? AAF connecti

I still believe that this is derived from the Swedish coat of arms (the three crowns, rampant lion, Scandanavian crown are all consistent). I'm not particularly familiar with the local history, but Wikipedia (for what it's worth) states that the Swedish connection in the area is early - pre-British. Apparently there was a Swedish colony along the Delaware River on the Mid-Atlantic coast of North America from 1638 to 1655. Fort Christina, now in Wilmington, Delaware, was the first settlement. New Sweden included parts of the present-day American states of Delaware, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Along with Swedes and Finns, a number of the settlers were Dutch. Some Germans also came to the colony as soldiers in the Swedish army).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sweden

The colouring of the ribbon is also pertinent - the yellow and blue are prominently displayed in the centre - Swedish national colours.

In Swedish heraldry, the lion carries a drawn sword in its right paw, curving over its head and a flower stem in its left paw. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_heraldry).

The vertical lines on the lower field of the shield (and the horizontal ones in the upper field for that matter) are stylised colours when it is not possible to represent the coloured object. In heraldry horizontal lines indicate azure (blue) and short vertical lines/dots represent or (gold).

Again this indicates that in the real coat of arms/crest, the shield would be blue above (with three gold crowns aligned in the same manner as the Swedish coat of arms), and golden below with a lion bearing a drawn sword and a stylised flower stem.
Not sure what colour the crossed fasces are but these are typically or (gold). Not sure what colour the lion would be - it's shown solid, which suggests argent (silver) and this is in line with the lion shown on the shoulder flash of the Nordic battlegroup (derived from the original heraldic devices of several Scandanavian sources).

 

[stanier]

Re: Can anyone ID this Meritorious Service pin? AAF connecti

Stanier,

The description you posted was for the crest below, not the one on the medal. The black and white shield the lion is holding is William Penn's coat of arms. I could not find anything that broke down the significance of the heraldry of the coat of arms on the medal.

Hi all, to be clear I'm no clearer than anyone as to the true meaning of the heraldry on the medal. I did however find something on the web last week that did explain William Penns's shield, but I can't remember where now, but I'll try and find it. And I'd love someone to find an official explanation of the medal, I can't believe one is so elusive.

Anyway, in the absence of official explanation I'd still plump for the lion being representative for the one off William Penn's shield (though accept the shield is missing on the medal) why put anything else on a Pennsylvania National Guard medal given their history?

I'd guess that the three ships are symbolic of the three Palatine ships (at William Penn's invite) that were sent via England in 1717 to Philadelphia. These three ships seem very significant and the number of ships William Penn himself took the first Quakers to Pennsylvania keeps coming back as twenty three from the web.

The crown I suspect is representative of the British crown. I agree it looks more like a European crown, but just from looking at representations of the British crown on my original suggestions of British War Relief Society I don't think we should be too worried about that.

I think the crossed fasces is meant to represent a symbol of power against tyranny.

Of course I could very well be wrong on all the above, and would be very very interested to read an official explanation.

However, from all I've read this week (this thread really caught my interest) I still think anything to do with Sweden is a red herring, the lion is from William Penn and the crown British, and that's probably the order I have confidence in my suggested interpretation...

Cheers all

 

[Dr H]

Re: Can anyone ID this Meritorious Service pin? AAF connecti

Hi Stanier
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. As Nelson was reported to have said, 'I see no ships' but crowns. Heraldic ships don't resemble these devices. The crown surmounting the shield is not a British pattern, even Georgian ones look different. I can recommend some good books on heraldry (UK, US and European) if it has grabbed your interest.
I don't understand the repeated reference to the Penn State National Guard - is there actually a link to this?
Cheers
Ian

 

[stanier]

Re: Can anyone ID this Meritorious Service pin? AAF connecti

Hi Dr H,

Agree, and I could be totally off beam!

Reference to the Pennsylvanian State National Guard started here (for me)

The little emblem at the bottom is a keystone, and that is something that the State of Pennsylvania uses. Knowing that, it was easy to find the medal this goes with, which is a Pennsylvania National Guard Medal. I knew I had seen this before, just could not remember where.

And looking on the web this is strongly born out I think.

I agree about the style of the crown, but without knowing the history of the medal, and the earliest anncestor of the Pennsylvania National Guard existed is 1747 I don't understand why any other crown would be on there.